Sunday, 29 September 2013

CATHOLIC CIRCUS IN BELFAST

CATHOLIC CIRCUS IN BELFAST


THIS WEEKEND THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IN BELFAST IS PUTTING ON IT'S VERY OWN 3 DAY CIRCUS PERFORMANCE!

THEY CALL IT - THE CONGRESS - OUR CHURCH, OUR COMMUNITY, OUR COMMITMENT.

IT SHOULD REALLY BE CALLED - THE CATHOLIC CIRCUS - THE HIERARCHY'S CHURCH - THE HIERARCHY'S DICTATORSHIP - YOUR OBEDIENCE AND YOUR MONEY.

THE CONGRESS WILL BE PRESIDED OVER BY DIOCESAN RING MASTER - NOEL TREANOR WHO WILL HAVE NO WHIP BUT IN HIS HAND BUT HE WILL BE WAVING HIS NEW AGE WAND.

THERE WERE TWO DAYS OF MEETINGS. ON THE FIRST DAY - FRIDAY 27TH THEY SHIPPED IN A FEW THOUSAND 11 YEAR OLDS FROM THE VARIOUS CATHOLIC SCHOOLS. MOST OF THE KIDS DIDN'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT WAS GOING ON - AND THEY HAD NO INTEREST EITHER. FOR THE KIDS IT WAS A DAY OUT OF SCHOOL AND A BUS TRIP TO BELFAST.

ON DAY 2 THEY HAD THE ADULTS IN. THERE WERE WORKSHOPS LIKE:


1. Faith that does Justice:  Fr Peter McVerry SJ
2. Passing on the Faith:  Breda O’Brien
3. Reconciliation: The Gospel Story and My story.  Bishop Alan Abernethy
4. Church: Everybody’s Welcome.  Elizabeth Davies
5. Co-responsibility: A Parish reality.  Jim Deeds & John Colgan

FATHER PETER MC VERRY IS A GOOD JESUIT PRIEST WHO WORKED FOR DECADES WITH HOMELESS BOYS AND YOUTHS ON THE STREETS OF DUBLIN.

 THE OTHERS WERE A MOTLEY CREW.

I HAD TO LAUGH AT THE 4TH WORKSHOP - "THE CHURCH - EVERYBODY WELCOME"

DOES THAT INCLUDE DIVORCEES ?  GAY PEOPLE ?  PRIESTS WHO HAVE LEFT TO MARRY ? COUPLES WHO USE CONTRACEPTION ? WOMEN WHO HAD ABORTIONS ? 

DOES IT EVEN INCLUDE CATHOLICS WHO WOULD WANT TO BE CRITICAL OF THE CHURCH ?

WOULD I HAVE BEEN ALLOWED IN ?

YOU HAD TO WRITE BEFOREHAND AND REGISTER. IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF I HAD SENT IN MY APPLICATION FORM AND MY £10.

I THINK I WOULD HAVE BEEN IGNORED - OR HAD MY DEPOSIT RETURNED IN THE POST.

IN THE 1980'S BISHOP CAHAL DALY HELD A CLERGY CONGRESS. I STOOD UP TO SPEAK - IN A CONSTRUCTIVELY CRITICAL WAY - AND ALL 200 CLERGY PRESENT STAMPED THEIR FEET ON THE WOODEN FLOOR SO THAT I COULD NOT BE HEARD.


IF BISHOP CAHAL DALY HAD AN INTEREST IN JUSTICE AND FREE SPEECH - HE STOOD HAVE STOOD UP AND SAID THAT I SHOULD AT LEAST HAVE BEEN HEARD.

BUT DID HE - OF COURSE NOT.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT WANT DIALOGUE. THEY DO NOT WANT COLLEGIALITY. THEY DO NOT WANT THE LAITY HAVING ANY SAY IN CHURCH MATTERS.

THEY WANT TO LAITY - AND THE REST OF US TO 

PRAY UP - PAY UP - AND SHUT UP.

THIS WEEKENDS CONFERENCE IN BELFAST WILL BE ASSIGNED TO A LARGE BOUND REPORT.

IT WILL BE PUT ON A SHELF TO GATHER DUST.


AND THE BOYS WITH THE BIG HATS WILL GET BACK TO ABUSING POWER, WASTING MONEY AND COVERING UP ALL KINDS OF ABUSE.

THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AS IT STANDS IS AS REFORMABLE AS HELL ITSELF ! 











50 comments:

  1. Having seen that daniel curran and now that D&C protected moster of humanity Donaghy, has only recieved few years for his brutal and oppertunistic crimes, it makes me wonder if is now becoming worthwile reporting these crimes, only to see the perpetrator jailed for very short periods.

    I as a member of S.A.V.I.A are at present getting ready for the enquiry into institutional abuse within ALL instutitions. i am fearfull at the signal this gives to fellow victims and survivours. we are being asked by all sides to persuade our members to come forward and give their statements to the P.S.N.I with the hope of getting convictions for the crimes committed.

    It is becoming increasingly frustrating when the law allows these vile people after, a few years to be free again, when we have to suffer unending pain and suffering. (No wonder since they seem to have their very own judges and lawyers, well done UTV for saying it).

    I have every faith in the upcoming enquiry but wonder if we will every get justice for the hanous crimes committed against us.OUR STRUGGLE CONTINUES.

    We were not invited to the D&C Congress and when we offered to attend and speak we got a swift NO, GO AWAY!

    J - S.A.V.I.A

    PS - Did the Judge from North Belfast get a front row seat, the one who tried to get Donaghy an easy time. I think the law people are vile as well.


    U ARE IN VERY GOOD COMPANY BISHOP PAT!!

    ReplyDelete
  2. I WOULD PREFER TO BE IN YOUR COMPANY ANY DAY - THAN IN THE COMPANY OF ANY PRIEST, BISHOP OR POPE

    PAT

    ReplyDelete
  3. The church was born in an era of empires and monarchies, and it modeled its leadership on the societies of the time. Treanor is a Monarch and is like Herod at the time of Jesus, constructing a new life of luxury through a thing called 'palace'! He and other sin his circl cannot see it and in fact will pour scorn on our thinking here Bishop Pat, but that is their problem, much like today's gospel reading!!

    The critical step in the growth and stability of the church bureaucracy was the celibacy requirement, which resulted in the church aquiring more and more property while also not losing any through inheritance by offspring of priests. A writer called Fukuyama credits the church for reducing the impact of tribalism in eastern European societies and establishing the rule of law, both of which made it possible for democratic governments to eventually evolve. This all was just an unintended outcome of the impact of the Catholic church on society. Given that the church has long outlived its usefulness, it can be hoped that those things like celibacy and intrasigence that increased the power of the Catholic church will insure its demise and increase the swiftness thereof.

    The Congress - lol!!
    Bob

    ReplyDelete
  4. The Catholic church is not a Democracy! I am an R.C. and have known that for years and after much consideration, I have concluded that I am okay with that. I find that the prospect of electing a Pope by popular vote would absulutely not work in the R.C. church (I can’t even imagine what a Papal campagne would even look like, Papal buttons, Papal posters, bumper stickers…oh no!). As we all already know, most Americans are not informed on the issues when we vote for President (evidenced by some of the ones who have won). The Catholic electorate (sadly) is even less informed. I am quite happy to leave this choice up to the Cardinals who, though humanly are imperfect, will make a more informed choice (it’s not just about gay marriage and birth control or women priests). So this Catholic is very okay with the old fashioned set up in the RC church. By the way, the R.C. church is not quite a traditional monarchy, because succession does not pass by blood (the Pope is actually elected by the College of Cardinals as you pointed out).

    http://eternalbookshelf.wordpress.com Ani J. Sharmin
    Although liberal and progressive Catholics may be well-intentioned, they’re acting as if they don’t understand what it is they’ve signed up for. The Roman Catholic church is not a democracy. The church hierarchy isn’t elected, doesn’t have any checks or balances, and it doesn’t solicit or care about the opinions of ordinary churchgoers as to how things should be run. On the contrary, the Catholic church is an absolute monarchy! It’s run by a dictator-for-life who’s not accountable to anyone, who can’t be overruled, and who effectively chooses his own successor.

    That the Catholic Church is not a democracy is obvious, and I wonder why people continue to stay part of the Church if they disagree with it. I know some people have family members who pressure them, but for those whose family members also disagree with the Church and don’t do what it says … why stay? The Church takes forever to change it’s doctrines, long after so many other people have already realized they were wrong; I don’t think anything other than losing membership is going to convince them to change anything.

    Re: Infallibilty (@Leum, @MNb, @Azkyroth, etc.),
    The Church might only use official Infallibility on rare occasions, but many in its hierarchy do act like the Church can do no wrong and try to manipulate and harass people into following its doctrine, whether it was created under official Infallibility or not. So, yeah, Azkyroth has a valid point; they act like they’re always right about everything, whether it was officially Infallible or not. And this attitude isn’t irrelevant if your life is affected by it.

    Cathy

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The R C Church is not a democracy, Cathy. However do you think the R C Church is Christian, Roman or both? What would someone from another planet say based on empirecal evidence? Sean

      Delete
  5. I attended the congress yesterday and I have to say that the people who are the backbone and the 'leadership' in lay circles bowing to our clergy have a 10 to 20 year lifespan!!

    The clergy appear aloof, indifferent and to be honest pensionable!!

    I am not sure if they really are informed as to how far things have changed!

    Charlie - Belfast

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jazs, Charlie, have a £10r ! I never got loads of them but in fairness its a bit of the auld job I miss. Have you heard of the A P account? (Arse Pocket) used to be verry handy for weddings etc. By the way how is the masscard franchise doin these days? There's bucks there if its managed properly? Apoligies Charlie I misunderstood your contribution at first but as Puntius the Pilot said "what I have written stays written" Sean

      Delete
  6. As a woman who was at the congress - we care, we want change and we want Jesus Christ.

    Ordain women, make celibacy optional and please please free our priests and I ahve to say seminarians who clearly are homosexual.

    Get real brothers!!

    Sr - Mercy

    ReplyDelete
  7. The age gap for me was stark!!

    The amount of 'payer upper's' in their 70's and 80's is scary! I am 50 and I will not pay until there is change - simple.

    Paul - South Belfast

    P.S. The £20 a week I gave to my parish I have place in a jar, I need to find a worthy and safe source for my hard earned money!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. why not put a note in your parish envelope saying what you are doing. Cross out your number if you feel this helps. You are on the right track, Sean

      Delete
  8. I was told to mind my opinion and inform my conscience during a session in the Hilton! I really fear for the future.

    Dr. Antrim Road

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Fek m all and follow yr head! A person of good & informed conscience can do that. but as you point out Dr. it appears the people who give such advice do not have much hope in their current leadership now or in the medium term future. Sean

      Delete
  9. Who is that serious looking 'man' who sticks with Bishop Treanor, he is almost stuck to him lol?

    Curious observer - Ballycastle

    ReplyDelete
  10. I am prying that much good will come from this congress, please God change will happen and we can once again have pride in our church.

    Anne

    ReplyDelete
  11. Was there a very big elephant in the hall on saturday, did anyone see it or was it just me?

    Peter

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There is a big elephant in Manchester City Centre today in protest against the new high speed rail link. The Tory Conference is on! Sean

      Delete
  12. I loved the presence of the Blessed Sacrament at the Congress, shows that we are on the right road at least. When will a Sister raise that host and make Christ present?

    The male clergy are burnt out.

    Brid

    ReplyDelete
  13. What a great performance by the 'priest's' on Saturday evening, I really enjoyed them with my wife. My wife is so so full of hope for the church for our grandchildren, I so so fear that it was nothing but a performance.

    I pray that I am wrong, but my gut is telling me otherwise.

    Apols.

    John Ballymena

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Never apologise John! There needs to be bread between the crusts & you sound like an informed shopper. Sean

      Delete
  14. The obvious age gap was serious, the young present seem to have a balance issue. What has really changed in our church?

    George

    ReplyDelete
  15. I enjoyed all the stalls, there are some many good groups out there doing so much good. But they all have something in common, they are lay people!!

    They clergy are the issue to be honest, the rest of us are fine lol! That was the elephant for me, the clerical church and the laity church, two diffierent beings in existence. One is corrupt, the other is struggling with all the ordinary day to day issues. Apols for being so brutal.

    Mary

    ReplyDelete
  16. Your group of people were discussed Pat in our discussion, believe or not the ordinary person spoke fairly ok about you? That UTV showed you for who you are. Well done.

    Catholic Principal

    ReplyDelete
  17. DEAR CATHOLIC PRINCIPAL,

    I WAS VERY TOUCHED BY YOUR COMMENT.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Belfast Congress. Another talking shop but as Catholic Principal affirms there were good people there & there are many good Roman Catholic people everywhere. Thing is I believe Roman Catholic practice has shot itself in the foot by promoting a culture of Attendee rather than Worshipper in church. This distinction I clarified for myself since I started attending Church of the Saviour, Collyhurst, Manchester about 12 months ago. The parish has a webpage if anyone wants to check it out. Yesterday Clarice & I attended a commissioning of approx 60 Authorised Lay Ministers at a church in Stand, Greater Manchester. There were various groups, such as pastoral, youth, etc & worship which was the group I was part of. I am now licensed to lead worship in our parish church. It would appear that Manchester Diocese is taking the lead at exploring & redefining ministry in a modern age. Pat, which UTV programme are you talking about in your previous post? I saw an item on UTV live on the computer about child abuse but I'm not sure if that's the one you ment? Sean

    ReplyDelete
  19. Pennies all the way! Spot on Bob! Sean

    ReplyDelete
  20. If the congress is 'real' and 'serious' it will let the men (brothers, priests, et al) marry women and have families. There is just something weird these days about a bunch of guys providing family advice when they know nothing about it.

    Publically open the doors to the publicans, harlots and gay and lesbian. Seek transparency.

    Otherwise it is the same old same old, massive elephants in the room and everyone skirting round it!

    K

    ReplyDelete
  21. Yes, it is good that the Church is facing up to these alleged incidents of abuse, even though they are being brought by the back of their neck! As a policeman I find it difficult to see any morality in their ranks, I see it more in the arena of organised crime! But that is just me, oh and I investigate international organised crime!

    It is good that the UTV has done this investigation. The BBC and Co should offer support to the Church given its own problem with abuse, over 150 allegations, how is the BBC and media dealing with these allegations?

    Billy - Not my real name!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Billy I Never Realised the Media & the Church might have that much in common. Interesting comment! What do you think the common motivational link is? Sean

      Delete
  22. but still no word on whether there will be any enquiry into the Down & Connor itself???

    Catholic mummy

    ReplyDelete
  23. The Pope makes sense. Iran seems a little more reasonable. The Russians were quite helpful. And Congress is crazy.

    Nothing will change, sorry!!

    Che

    ReplyDelete
  24. The Catholic Church with or without the D&C COngress is not changing its teachings, the new Pope has merely chosen to emphasise a different texture from the palate. His tone is more inclusive and to this outsider more in tune with Jesus than those who may have followed him. A true humble servant is someone worth emulating.

    However, it is just a different approach, like the Congress - substance . NOT CHNAGED!

    Frank

    ReplyDelete
  25. Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air - he understands the human condition. He knows that good people struggle and before his Papacy is over, the Catholic Church will lead Christianity to a new understanding of right and wrong - birth control and family planning are necessary for planetary survival, homosexuality is not evil and gay people will be married, women will be ordained, divorce will be recognized as the end of a marriage, not excommunication from the Church, and the sexual oppression that has characterized Catholic teaching will go away. Then we can all move on to a more peaceful, socially just and happier world. I can dream, can't I?

    Peggie

    ReplyDelete
  26. As a United Nations Committee on children's rights confronts the Vatican on its abysmal record on clerical paedophilia and criminal cover-ups, UTV shows us once again the nature and substance that exists!

    ReplyDelete
  27. Part I

    In the first week of July (2013), as well as a scandal with the Vatican Bank that resulted in its top two executives being fired, there was the release of devastating court papers on the RC Diocese of Milwaukee in which countless boys in a Catholic school for the deaf were abused, presumably chosen because of their reduced capacity to communicate.

    An attorney for some of the victims alleges that there were more than 8,000 cases of abuse by more than 100 staff. A harrowing film Mea Maxima Culpa has been made about this.

    The diocese has declared itself bankrupt, limiting the funds available to victims of abuse.

    The Vatican, under its diplomatic nom de plume The Holy See, is a signatory of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which incurs a long list of strict obligations.

    One of these is five-yearly reporting of the challenges encountered in conforming to the Convention. But the Vatican only filed its report, due in 1997, in 2011.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Part II

    In their list of issues raised with the Vatican the Committee asked: "In the light of the recognition by the Holy See of sexual violence against children committed by members of the clergy, brothers and nuns in numerous countries around the world, and given the scale of the abuses" in respect of every case of abuse "committed by members of the clergy, brothers and nuns" (in summary):

    (a) Whether those accused were removed or not from contact with children

    (b) Whether reporting to secular authorities was mandatory

    (c) Whether children were supported when making accusations and whether they were silenced

    (d) What was the outcome in canon law trials and whether there was co-operation with authorities in the countries concerned

    (e) What assistance was given to victims

    (f) What preventative measures are in place

    Questions were also asked about the Magdalene Laundries run by nuns in Ireland until their closure in 1996, where inmates (some of whom were girls) were used as forced labour.

    In my opinion, having seen the evidence, none of these questions can honestly be answered in a way that will satisfy the Committee.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Pope Francis has already said that he will "act decisively" over clerical paedophiles, but doing so will take more than the slick PR we have seen so far; it is a Herculean task. More challenging even than tackling the huge scale and the worldwide spread of this abuse could be making the necessary complete change to the Vatican culture of all his predecessors. And his answers to these questions, and more importantly his actions, will reveal whether he has the willingness and the clout to root out the corruption.

    UTV shows clearly that D&C are living in the Benedict era!!

    Catherine

    ReplyDelete
  30. In those parts of the world where levels of education are high and authoritarianism is on the decline, the Catholic Church is withering. In those areas of the world dominated by ignorance and superstitution, where authoritarianism rules the day, the Catholic Church is flourishing.

    As one who sees the Catholic Church more as a force of global evil than good, a part of me hopes that the Church stays exactly as it is - it's hypocrisy and ignorance are so readily apparent that reasonable men and women will continue to flee its teachings (they may remain 'members of the Church', but they will disagree with the Church on many major issues).

    At the same time, the price is a continuation of the current evil supported by the Church...

    I try to use my reason to understand these things!

    Bob

    ReplyDelete
  31. It is appropriate (and perhaps helpful in preventing incivility) when discussing such issues to establish that disagreement about fundamentals will preclude any agreement about relatively secondary matters. To begin with, an individual may or may not profess faith in the existence of a deliberately creative, personal God, belief in the Creed, etc. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 308, 485. . .) In terms of philosophy this means acknowledgment of the supervision of/intervention in history by supernatural personal agents (angels, daimons . . .); also that such beings (perhaps benevolent; perhaps misleading) may influence human intellect/imagination by means other than strictly sensory input. (Padre Pio; Garabandal)

    A person who has no belief in such agency is severely (not to say absolutely) incapable of rightly comprehending Catholicism, and consequently, of Magisterial teachings - e.g. either it is the case or it is not the case that an infinitely knowledgeable and powerful God (merciful, yet fair in judgment) has the ability to form a human life at conception. The teaching of the Catholic Church in this regard will certainly not change.

    "a poached egg" - C. S. Lewis...

    Congress or circus!!

    ReplyDelete
  32. This is exactly right, the Church will not and should not change. The Church has spent the last 2000 years not changing to every wish of the popular idea of the world, and guess what, it is still here! Every other institution has failed and gone the way of the dodo. Why is the Church still here? Because it is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:18-19. The Church should not change to the wants of the world, the world is called to change to the teachings of Christ and His Church. We might all be better off if we listened to the Church a little more often as it is the only constant in the world that has been here for 2000 years. Nations rise, nations fall, kings rule, kings die, the world desires this, then it desires that. But the Church does not, because Jesus Christ founded her and will protect her through all things!

    Mary

    ReplyDelete
  33. It's about the victims, the cover up, the deceit and a complete breakdown in competant leadership who at the very least is complicit in the cover up-which because of the transfers, implicates the Vatican.
    The fact that us sheep sit idly by without demanding change, is in itself sad.
    Save the statistics. Just because others do it, doesn't make it right.
    The Church's leadership should and will be held to a higher standard--at some point.
    It's always been about the truth and coming clean...starting at the top

    I suggest a congress of truth>

    Robert

    ReplyDelete
  34. If the Catholic church does not change it risks being marginalized. Scientists are more and more becoming nonbelievers. Stephen Hawking in his book "The Grand Design" writes that no god was needed in figuring out how existence began, and Richard Dawkins new book "The Magic of Reality" attacks religious thinking, and explains what is real and what isn't - and god isn't. He was made up by the ancients in the days before science and commonsense. Surely the future will get even worse for religions as people are being educated beyond ancient superstitions.
    Europe has already gone agnostic about gods, and most Brits stopped indoctrinating their children after WW1, and it only increased after WW2 when they turned many churches into Bingo Halls, and people attended in droves. Think about that. Bingo is more meaningful than God. But that's only because people don't actually believe god exists. If he existed it would be another matter. But clearly he doesn't. And that's the whole point....

    USA

    ReplyDelete
  35. I attended the Congress on Saturday and I have to say that I was shocked as to how things have changed and are changing.The atmosphere was excellent, there was a spirit of openess and there was a listening ear.

    I am a liberal Catholic Bishop Pat, but I am more hopeful now than I was, well done to D&C for their effort.

    Mary





    ReplyDelete
  36. To be fair – and I know a lot of people don’t like to be fair to the Church – the comments extracted above do not represent the totality of the Church’s response to the issue of abuse. In fact on the home page of the diocesan website there is a link to a summary of an independent review of abuse cases, http://www.downandconnor.org/blog/2011/10/31/31-october-2011/

    The issue of the response of the Church to abuse was raised at the meeting I attended, and the way in which it is described in the Living Church document is a fair precis of the discussion.

    At least, and at last, Down and Connor are talking to and with their lay congregation. That’s a good thing.

    Very Liberal Catholic - Belfast

    ReplyDelete
  37. Pastoral Councils were first established in some Down & Connor parishes from the late 1980s.

    I’m not aware of any earth-shattering changes in the Catholic Church as a result of their work over the past 25 years or so.

    This time with the congress it will be different – won’t it?

    Bob - Newcastle

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anyone see the 'small' piece in the Irish News recently about how many accusations have been brought against priest's in the past year or so?

    Peter

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Accusations are a verry serious thing. When they are justified that is a step forward, However when they are the convolutings of some misguided mischiefmaker & this is proven then the false accuser should cop for the offence. Sean

      Delete
  39. Is it a sign of ‘democratisation’ in the Catholic Church?

    NO, THE CHURCH IS NOT A DEMOCRACY IN MATTERS OF FAITH OR MORALS, NOR IN GOVERNANCE.

    Does it mean that the views of laypeople will be taken more seriously?

    HOPEFULLY. THE VIEWS OF LAITY ARE IMPORTANT AND OFTEN PROPHETIC.

    Is it a cynical public relations exercise meant to rehabilitate the church of D&C in the wake of the clerical child sex abuse scandals?

    I DUNNO. WHO CAN SAY? LET’S HOPE NOT. IF THE VOICES OF FAITH AND REASON ARE LISTENED TO, THEN THE EXERCISE WILL HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL. IF IT LEADS TO MORE CONFUSION AND MORE DISSENT, IT WILL BE A FAILURE.

    Is it a tired bureaucratic exercise that gives people the chance to let off steam, but in the end will not result in meaningful change?
    WHO CAN SAY?

    Is it even welcomed by the laity?

    YES AND NO. IT IS WELCOMED IN ONE SENSE, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, IT IS UNNECESSARY AND POTENTIALLY HARMFUL. YOU DON’T WALK INTO AN INSANE ASYLUM AND ASK THE PATIENTS WHAT TREATMENTS THEY WOULD LIKE BEST AND GIVE THEM FREE REIGN. THE CHURCH IN IRELAND IS SICK AND IN CRISIS. THE LAST THING WE NEED IS TAKE ADVICE FROM A LARGELY UNFORMED, UN-CATECHISED, UN-EVANGELISED LAITY. I AM NOT AGAINST CONSULTING LAITY. I AM AGAINST CONSULTING DISSENTERS ON HOW TO FURTHER THWART THE MISSION OF THE CHURCH.

    And to what extent are the laity actually equipped to make positive contributions to the discussion?

    SEE ABOVE. THE LOUDEST VOICES AT THESE EVENTS ARE OFTEN DISSENTERS. I ALSO THINK SUCH EXERCISES ARE NOT HELPFUL TO THE DISSENTERS THEMSELVES, IN THAT THEY SEEM TO LEND CREDIBILITY TO THE DISSENTERS.

    Conservative Catholic - Belfast

    ReplyDelete
  40. I should also add that, in Ireland, a big part of the problem is the clergy, many of whom appear unwilling to pursue authentic renewal in line with the Second Vatican Council, as given by the Magisterium, as in, what the Council documents actually teach, as opposed to the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ which one American bishop said recently was a demon which needed to be exorcised. Benedict XVI said that the documents contain the teaching, not some nebulous ‘spirit’ from the 1960s free love era. SO it is not only the laity who are problematic. What we need is a comprehensive programme of authentic and exciting Catholic evangelisation and catechesis.

    Conservative Catholic

    ReplyDelete
  41. We constantly hear ( particularly from non, dare one say, anti-religious media commentators ) how the Catholic Church needs to listen to the laity ( particularly those members of the laity who subscribe to an anti-Roman, anti-Papal version of the Church ; akin to the Chinese patriotic association ) more & democratise it’s structures. The underlying motivation being to emasculate the Church & turn it into a compliant servant of Caesers. Yet the reality is, due to very weak cathecesis most of the laity are not aware of their pivotal role in defending the integrity of the faith ( the infantile religious instructtion in Catholic secondary schools, leads straight to the exit sign ; it’s not the laity’s fault ; it’s largely the Bishops, for tolerating this in their schools ). So when these listening processes are held, the damage is done ; the uneducated laity mainly parrott the puerile stuff they’ve picked up from the equally ill-informed Irish media – blame Rome ; married Priests ; dilute/downplay the sacramernts etc. No listening process is a substitute for sound theology ; good/faithful/joyful ( it is Good News, after all ) Priests ; a well educated laity. Pope Benedict is an excellent exemplar, but it’s going to take a few generations to recover ( & that’s assuming common sense prevails – not a certainty ) from the general infantilisation of Catholicism, Irish style.

    Get dissenters out of our schools!

    CATHOLIC TEACHER AND FAITHFUL.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wise up, are you serious FAITHFUL teacher? Faithful to what - Scripture, Conscience or Church? I know what I am faithful to, Scripture and Conscience!! If the Church wants my TRUST let them earn it please!

      I am a questioning teacher - by the way Donaghy abused boys in a Catholic school library - faithful teachers said NOTHING!!! I am not one of them and I am proud!

      Catholic Teacher and Faithful to Scripture & Conscience.

      Delete