Friday, 12 May 2017

AN INDEPENDENT CATHOLIC CHURCH

AN INDEPENDENT CATHOLIC CHURCH




On Tuesday a Blog reader wrote:


"Would it be possible for an Independent ordinary Catholic congregation to survive, say serviced by independent clergy. Maybe even married men ordained by Bp. Pat or by Ab. Michael Cox? What about an Irish branch of the Old Catholics with Vat.ll liturgy?? No special agenda, such as feminism or gay rights or secularism, or whatever. - just the ordinary everyday selfless service that + Pat speaks of when talking about the many good and faithful ordinary priests who laboured at the coal face, bringing the presence of Christ into the daily lives of so many. A simple desire really. Shame that it should come to this, that we even have to ask the question. Good to see some sensible debate return to the blog, by the way"! 

This is NOT the first time that I have such a suggestion both on and off the Blog.

It is very important to me that I am not a "empire builder" in any way and therefore I would be willing to make this move IF there was a good interest in it by even a small number of people.

In this way we could perhaps see the impetus coming from The Holy Spirit rather than from anyone's ego or ambition.


I am certainly done with the Roman Catholic Church because of its almost absolute corruption and the fact that it, as a church, is very far from the image Christ had for his church and indeed the church that existed in Apostolic times.

I would have no interest in joining the Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian or any other church as they, in their own way, are just as taken over by man made structures as Rome.

And while I am a Christian I am very happy to be a Catholic Christian and not a Protestant Christian.


The things I appreciate about Catholicism are:

1. The Seven Sacraments.

2. The Liturgy.

3. The tradition of Holy Orders - deacon, priest and bishop.

4. The example and writings of many of the saints.


The things I do NOT appreciate are:

1. The legalism of Canon Law.

2. The all male hierarchy.

3. The amassing of such huge wealth.

5. The Papacy.

6. Compulsory celibacy.

7. The medieval approach to human sexuality.

You can have, as the "Old Catholic Movement" shows Catholicism without all these man made structures and control.


The term Old Catholic Church was originally used from the 1850s by groups which had separated from the Roman Catholic Church over certain doctrines, primarily concerned with papal authority. These churches are not in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church; however, member churches of the Union of Utrecht of the Old Catholic Churches (UU) are in full communion with the Anglican Communion,[1] and some are members of the World Council of Churches.[2]
The formation of the Old Catholic communion of Germans, Austrians and Swiss began in 1870 at a public meeting held in Nuremberg under the leadership of Ignaz von DΓΆllinger, following the First Vatican Council. Four years later episcopal succession was established with the consecration of an Old Catholic German bishop by a prelate of the Church of Utrecht. In line with the "Declaration of Utrecht" of 1889, they accept the first seven ecumenical councils and doctrine formulated before East–West Schism 1054, but reject communion with the pope and a number of other Catholic doctrines and practices. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church notes that since 1925 they have recognized Anglican ordinations, that they have had full communion with the Church of England since 1932 and have taken part in the ordination of Anglican bishops.[3] Some orders are still recognized by the Roman Catholic Church[citation needed] although not any female priests.[4]
The term "Old Catholic" was first used in 1853 to describe the members of the See of Utrecht who did not recognize any infallible papal authority. Later Catholics who disagreed with the Roman Catholic dogma of papal infallibility as defined by the First Vatican Council (1870) had no bishop and joined with Utrecht to form the UU. These Old Catholic churches today are found substantially in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Austria. Union of Utrecht Old Catholic churches are not generally found outside of Western Europe.
Beliefs
Old Catholic theology views the Eucharist as the core of the Christian Church. From that point the church is a community of believers. All are in communion with one another around the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as the highest expression of the love of God. Therefore, the celebration of the Eucharist is understood as the experience of Christ's triumph over sin. The defeat of sin consists in bringing together that which is divided.[5]

Old Catholics believe in unity in diversity and often quote the Church Father Vincent of LΓ©rins's Commonitory: "in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all.

I certainly would in interested in an IRISH OLD CATHOLIC CHURCH

or

An INDEPENDENT IRISH CATHOLIC CHURCH

I would be interested to hear the views of more readers on this topic. 

ps: The Oratory Society which I founded in 1986 - 31 years ago now, is I suppose really an independent catholic church.

It is situated in a converted double garage and seats about 50.

We have had thousands of weddings, hundreds of baptisms and thankfully, a smaller number of funerals,

We have no connection with the Roman Catholic Church.
Nobody belonging to Rome has any authority or say over us.
We celebrate the Seven Sacraments.

We did NOT adopt the recent changes in the Mass and have kept the liturgy of Vatican 11.
Our church community is chaired by a woman and all the committee are lay men and women apart from myself.
I am not the head of the community.
I am simply the priest / bishop that serves the community.
All decisions, little and large, are made by the congregation.

There is no reason why there should not be Oratories in Dublin, Cork, Galway etc.

Anyone interested ?


142 comments:

  1. Could the IICC / IOCC have an England, Wales & Scottish province or International province?

    I am interested. I haven't gone further than a surface look at other liberal old catholics because they appeared locked solid to the old creeds,parts of which I am uncomfortable with, but your creed from a few months back interested me greatly and revived thoughts of belonging more closely to a physical church on earth again with all the demonstrations and experience of love, encouragement and spiritual blessing that may bring. Although we may worship in spirit and truth, the fact of our physical existence and the mystery of the incarnation, heaven wedded to earth, demonstrates to me that whatever is to come, the purpose of everything is not culminated in some future notions of heaven, but in what we do right now, hearing his voice today, loving service to neighbour, who is my neighbour?, parable of the good Samaritan. God has demonstrated the essential goodness of the created order and therefore I am unwilling to use terms such as secularism but rather to look for Gods saving action wherever and in whoever it is to be found. Traditional, prayerful forms of worship are a part of our rich liturgical traditions, but I was powerfully moved by the folk masses we used to have at School also, so will not disparage that. I'm glad you still use Vat 2 Pat, but also that you and your fellow clergy sit to the side of the sanctuary.
    There, I'll stop for now and see what you and others have to say.
    "Unity In Diversity!" <3 :-)

    I would be happy to start a facebook group and see what interest there is in response to that, but with regard to unity, lets see how the dry bones start to come together here as the Holy Spirit breathes on them. "Breathe On Me Breath Of God! Fill Me With Life A New! That I May Love What Thou Dost Love And Do What Thou Wouldst Do!

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    1. Tom, yes there could be an English branch.

      Do the Facebook thing to test interest.

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    2. Go for it Tom. I think a nerve has been struck here, judging by the reaction. Let us all pray for guidance in all this. If it is a work of God it will prosper. D.V.

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  2. What you are propsing is already established only not here yet in Ireland. Surely you would be better to align yourself with them, not so much about strength in numbers but strength in prayer.. Oh whats it called Ecumenical Catholic something or other

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    1. I have been in touch with the Utrect people and they tell me that "their" presence in Ireland is the Church of Ireland and to contact them.

      But, with all due respect, I am not interested in being part of a "Protestant" and "establishment" church whose "head" is an earthly monarch etc.

      I think it will need to be something new that at a later stage can join with other sister churches.

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  3. As far as interest is concerned in ministry that would probably be a YES but I wouldn't want the Roman Format or Gaynooth for that matter.

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    1. Neither would I. Any servants - male and female - could have a totally different type of formation.

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  4. Why did you not adopt the current changes

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    1. Because they were a step backways and into strange language.

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  5. Still looks like a garage though, why no kneelers???

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    1. A bit like a stable?

      Because we sit and stand and dont want to put people down on their knees like Rome does.

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    2. Pat Pat Pat, did Jesus not kneel to wash the Apostles feet? He did that as an example for all to follow. However you disregard this? The woman knelt to wash and annoint the feet of Christ, and yet you would deny her this? You are some craic. Please post this comment instead of censoring every single statement.

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  6. What you and the Blogger say make allot of sense. I am drawn to ask about practicalities. What are the logistics of getting this off the ground. I am wondering about backlash from the "horrified few" and what form this might take if any. Would members be bullied or discriminated against? Again thinking of the attitudes of some of the "disgruntled Few" sometimes portrayed on here. Much has changed since my early days in terms of inclusion and anti discrimination under rule of law. I am asking as Devil's Advocate and not one who condensed if all this law really counts for anything in the Ireland of the 21st century

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    1. I have had backlash for 30 years now and am still standing.

      As you say we have laws now.

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    2. 9.23 condensed should read condemnes -stupid phone!

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  7. So if I joined, where would I get buried...in my local catholic graveyard ?
    I don't use the kneeler any more
    When I was in Spain, I never saw anyone kneel at mass.

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    1. have travelled and buried people in their own Catholic graveyard.

      There are also public cemeteries.

      That will not be a problem.

      All the children I have baptised have been accepted in all schools.

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    2. I like 10.28 thought about the same thing . I am no longer a church of Rome member but I would like to be buried with my family . I found out that many non roman catholics are buried in their grave yards . Besides families have to buy the plots so how can they stop you from being buried .

      As to an independent catholic church with no ties or truck with Rome I think it's a great idea . If there was one up on north coast I'd definitely attend . In coleraine there is a church called vineyard and it is full of former roman catholics . Whilst they do exellent work in the community there actual worship is very happy clappy and not for me . I'd rather have a traditional mass minus the bells n smells

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  8. In the eucharistic prayer Pat who do you pray for Francis? and me your unworthy servant ????

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    1. Most Sundays one of our priests concelebrate with me and he freely prays for "Francis our pope and Patrick our bishop".

      I am not a dictator and he is free to pray as he wishes.

      Initially he used to pray for "Francis our pope and Noel our bishop" but changed of his own accord without any discussion with anyone.

      At Easter he got flustered and caused a laugh out loud moment when he prayed: "For Patrick our pope ...".

      Here at The Oratory there is no pressure on anyone.

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    2. When I do not have a concelebrant I pray for: "All Christian, religious and world leaders".

      Delete
  9. To get this off the ground people di not need chapels or oratories.

    Just meet in each others home like the apostles and early Christians did ???

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  10. Are you really a credible leader? I mean given your public profile the public would view this as some kind of 'business'!

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    1. I would not see myself as a "leader".

      It needs to be based on the community having the "power" and people like me SERVING.

      As for the "business" end it could be a registered charity with a proper constitution and officers - chair, secretary, treasure, accounts etc.

      Christ would be the Head.

      The community would make decisions.

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  11. Just get on with it then, if that's what you want... This blog is fast becoming a cold house for old friends like me. Time to go, I think..

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  12. Lads, there is an independent church in england and Ireland, we call them protestors, heretics and schismatics.

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    1. 11.54 our friend is back?

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    2. Here Pagey, you hop around faiths and families like its going out of fashion.

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    3. 15.27 Bully Bully Naughty naughty😴 Please aim to keep comments appropriate.

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  13. Back to the future eh? Pat you're having flights of fancy about an independent Irish Church - this exists already, it's called the church of Ireland. Anglicanism was initially seen as Catholicism without the Pope but quickly drifted doctrinally because of the reformation influence. So don't go reinventing the wheel, join the planters church and be done with it!

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    1. I have had various experiences with the Church of Ireland - both good and bad.

      Yes, they are catholic with a small c.

      But they are also a Protestant church and the head of the Church of England is Queen Elizabeth.

      The Church of Ireland is a low church.

      I am not attracted to or helped by low.

      They also only have two sacraments - Baptism and Eucharist.

      I treasure sacraments like Penance, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Marriage and the Sacrament of the Sick.

      There are many issues involved.

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  14. This surely means that if you are serious about this that you have to move out of the Oratory and finally disconnect yourself from the power of Rome around you?

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    1. I have lived at The Oratory for 33 years now.

      That 33 years years has a very complex history.

      Those complexities were resolved 5 years ago in a confidential Belfast High Court agreement.

      The fact that I live here gives "Rome" no power over me at all.

      The question of an Independent Irish Catholic Church is not at all connected to where I happen to reside.

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  15. I think if a new formal church is to be the way forward the primary concern is meaningful worship of God. Who owns what part of the doctrinal pie is secondary and snacks of the attitude of scribes and Pharisees in the Bible

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    1. I agree. And perhaps we need a more informal than formal situation.

      It something emerges it needs to be based on the New Testament and the early Apostolic church of Jerusalem and Antioch.

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  16. I certainly won't be joining your so-called "independent catholic church". I will be staying with the Catholic Church Jesus founded and promised to be with until the end of time.

    It is far from perfect but it is also far from being "totally corrupt". It is your own bigotry and bitterness that makes you allege that falsehood.

    Jesus has warned us about the weeds and the wheat in His Church and I will be staying in His own Vineyard that He has assured us, one day, His angels will visit and cleanse - rooting out every cause of offence and evil.

    The Church may have begun in people's houses in those early days but they were commanded to evangelise the ends of the earth - so it was going to grow and change radically in shape as time went on and, inevitably, would need structures and institutions.

    You don't want the papacy? Jesus said to Peter, "I will give YOU the keys of the Kingdom.....". To Peter alone He said, "feed my lambs, look after my sheep".

    There have been evil popes and popes who were great saints. Most of them, like all of us, have been "fair to middling".

    I will be staying with Peter - not swallowing the nonsense of a gather up of various oddballs and misfits going in a thousand different directions.

    The Catholic Church will be still around long after the Oratory has been bulldozed and long after you and I, Pat Buckley, have gone out into Eternity. May God save us both.

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    1. You are entitled to your opinion and to have it published.

      But I profoundly disagree with you.

      I reject your charges of bigotry and bitterness.

      If you want to look for weeds look at the Crusades, the Counter Reformation, the Inquisition, the rape of women, men and children by popes, bishops, priests and religious etc etc.

      I do not believe that Peter was ever the bishop of Rome. He may never have even been in Rome.

      The promise of Christ was given to the Church - not to one man.

      You stay with Peter.

      I will stay with Christ.

      I imagine that Rome will around for a long time. But that longevity has nothing to do with its purity and more to do with power, politics, wealth and men's self interest.

      Delete
    2. MourneManMichael12 May 2017 at 14:28

      I used to wonder at attitudes and beliefs like that shown by Anon @ 13:10.
      The study of psychology is instructive in understanding processes involved in brainwashing people into believing as absolute and incontrovertible, information and beliefs that fly in the face of objective historical and scientific evidence. Indeed a lack of openmindedness, and 'clinging on' to beliefs seems like resentful desperation clutching at straws.
      MMM

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    3. At root, are we not dealing with fear and ignorance?

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    4. The promise was given to BOTH Peter AND the Church. Peter and the Church are with Christ. The Catholic Church is not Rome. It does not matter whether or not Peter was in Rome. If Rome was blown up tomorrow the Catholic Church in communion with the Pope - Peter's successor - will continue unto the end of the world. You are blinded, Pat, by your own bitterness. What matters is Jesus' undertaking to Peter - the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. The wickedness in the Church stems from sinful and fallen human nature - the exact same nature that you also have.

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    5. I do not believe what you believe.

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    6. The pope is not Peter's successor.

      Peter was an Apostle not a bishop.

      There is a difference between apostles who vocation is to the universal church and a bishop whose vocation is to a particular church.

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    7. You are talking absolute claptrap Pat - stubbornly digging in your heels on account of your own bigotry and prejudice.

      The words of Christ to Peter are not worth recording if they were intended for Peter only during his lifetime. Their relevance in God's saving plan would have ended with Peter's death.

      The Lord's Church, however, is established until the end of the ages. Therefore, His words are not only to Peter but also to his successors. Peter would eventually die. Did the Lord's promise to Peter of a Church that would not be prevailed over by Hell and of keys to His kingdom die with Peter?

      Certainly not.

      Peter was both an apostle and a bishop. His successor today has a mission to the Universal Church whilst also being bishop of a particular Church - the diocese of Rome.

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    8. I also wonder at attitudes and beliefs such as yours MMM - the sheer and utter arrogance of a man who concludes that anyone who does not share his conclusions - whose narrative differs - is somehow "brainwashed".

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    9. 16:12 I do not accept your beliefs.

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    10. And I, at 16:12, most certainly reject your beliefs, Pat. The Sacraments you claim to cherish, etc. They did not come down the Lough in a bubble. They come from the Catholic Church.

      You have many reasons to be justifiably angry with certain persons in the Catholic Church. But does not mean that you are correct in your rejection and damning of the whole Church.

      Does it ever cross your mind that you could be WRONG?

      Despite you always painting yourself in the best possible light, you are much a sinner as everyone else and as susceptible to the darker forces in human nature as the rest of us.

      The answer is not to be found in some dreamt up so-called "independent" pseudo "catholic church" - a total fantasy.

      The weeds and the wheat grow side by side until the harvest. Make sure that you are wheat and not a weed!

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    11. I constantly question myself about my thoughts and beliefs.

      And indeed I might be wrong.

      I am indeed susceptible to dark forces - both within and without.

      I disagree with your word fantasy.

      I am trying to be a wheat.

      And wheat does get ground down!

      Delete
    12. "love will come again, Like wheat that springeth green." :-)

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  17. Christ and His church are present anywhere two or three gather in his name. Dublin PP

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    1. What empty Theology. Dublin PP needs to study Schillibecks.

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    2. I would prefer that he continue to "study" Christ.

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  18. Of course the years have been complex of that I have no doubt. And likely Rome couldn't give a toss about you, but I think we both know I was referring to the Rome of Down and Connor. Now I not suggesting either that you give up your right to remain on the premises of Princesses Street even after your death or the fact that your beautiful Oratory us a place of worship for good people, but I fear the distaste of the day that will come when D&C will take get pleasure in evicting your faithful. After all they have done similar all across the diocese, look at the havoc of distruction at the hands of Delargy in Ballymena.
    All I'm suggesting is good governance of your flocks shelter.
    An "IICC" is a better option than staying with the current defunk churches Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland or other.

    I agree with your position on a sacramental church that people could belong to.

    I agree that it must be diverse for all sexes.

    I agree that it should be open to celibate and married of any combination of sexes.

    I agree that it doesn't require years of inordinate study to be a good Minister, Priest, Pope. Whats is important is the heart.

    I hope the "IICC" does get up and running soon. I believe there's so many good people out there who want to serve and be members of such a group of worshippers. It will not be without the stone throwers like those in the Gospel. But hopefully like those recounted the lines of the Gospel , one by one they will walk away.

    I minister a few days a week for one and all, no matter which family of faith they belong to they all want something more, something better or purer than what they've got.

    Roll on the "Independent Irish Catholic Church" "IICC"

    πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ˜†πŸ˜†πŸ˜†

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    1. You make some good points.

      While I have lived in Prince's GARDENS ( :-) ) for 33 years it is true that a worshipping community has worshipped here for 31 years every single Sunday for all those years.

      At 65 I am well aware that my time is limited. My grave is already marked.

      We do need to discuss what will happen to our community thereafter.

      I am not so foolish as as to think that Down and Connor will have an episcopus benevolens :-)

      Delete
    2. Many of us faithful Catholics pray for and look forward to your demise.

      Those attending The Oratory can simply attend Mass in Larne Parish Church.

      PP Down and Connor.

      Delete
    3. See how much hatred that is in the hearts of so called Christian Ministers. You see its not Jesus' church here on earth its theirs.
      A proud PP of Down and Connor who would dearly love to throw as many stones at you as he could.
      Remember dear PP of Down and Connor Jesus said he who is for me is not against and it's only the divided hoyse such as yours that will fall.
      You say many of us faithful Catholics pray and look forward to Pats demise. What a shameful statement but that's right you believe yourself to be Catholic and a PP to emptying pews who think differently. I believe if Jesus were to walk by here he'd surely say "get behind me PP"

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    4. @PP Down and Connor:
      Thank you for demonstrating so clearly the reason Pat feels an independent Catholic body is needed.
      'Many of us faithful Catholics pray for and look forward to your demise.'
      That you can publish things like this complete with your identity as an alleged Christian leader shows that you've lost it. And if by demise, you refer to Pat's death, you are no better than Islamist extremists.

      Delete
    5. Dead prophets often have more power than living ones!

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    6. But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD’s people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!”

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    7. 13.53 How sad. (I would remove that comment as inappropriate if it were me)

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    8. Well it ain't you Mr Page or Vicar Page or whatever you call yourself these days. You can't stand criticism or the facts that you left the Church for a woman and you now snipe at it from the sidelines whilst joining an heretical Church of England. God, you couldn't make it up.

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    9. @17:42 Rev Father Sean was chiding someone presenting themselves as a priest who states that they are praying for Bsp Pats demise! That is a selfless act of human kindness in support of Pat, against behaviour not worthy of any decent human being. You are just using it as an excuse to bully Sean, lowering yourself to the same level. You may be representative of some Roman Catholics, you are certainly not representative of most Christians!

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  19. Father, thank you for your kindness.

    Many of those attending here have already lost faith in you, your colleages, your parishes etc.

    I have bo doubt that after my time the Good Shepherd will look after "my" flock.

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  20. @13:53 Father (If indeed you are) Pray for justice, do not pray for the demise of anyone. Do unto others etc. Christ sets us a higher standard than the "Heathens" ( very often more true receivers of Gods promise, and in my book there are no heathens, simply seed from the sowers hand and rich crops we don't always recognise.)The Dalai Lama chided his followers for celebrating the death of Mau, this is the higher standard. love your enemies. +Pat is the enemy of no one, but those who hide in dark places will indeed fear the light!

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    1. And the Dalai Lama would be most welcome to celebrate and preside at The Oratory.

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  21. Those attending The Oratory are not just from Larne. They are from Glengormley, Ballymena, Belfast, Ahoghill, Larne, Antrim, Derry, Holywood, Carrickfergus etc.

    Why would they simply attend Larne Parish Church, exciting as it is?

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  22. Are you Protestants from Glengormley, Ballymena, Ahoghill, Hollywood and Carrickfergus? Just wondering? If you are, why attend a Mass?

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    1. Strange question.

      The Oratory welcomes all regardless of religion or denomination.

      I can tell you that over the past 31 years The Oratory has welcomed Roman Catholics, catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Pharsees, etc etc.

      No one here would ever dream of asking anyone their "religion".

      Delete
    2. I am Catholic and I brought my Roman Catholic children to mass at the Oratory a few weeks ago to let them see with thier own eyes how faith can be lived. They will grow to respect all Roman or not. For them there main concern was lack of music that day. I told them they mightnot have liked Pats dolcit tones lolol

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    3. I think I was in Canada that Sunday?

      Was our resident musician not playing and singing thay day?

      He is very, very good and his music is excellent?

      Delete
    4. Ps: People did tell me that there was a "strange" man here :-)

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    5. lolol not so strange lolol

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  23. Pat I think you're right to mention the Union of Utrecht Old Catholics specifically, since of course there are actually a lot of groups, some of them miniscule, who also call themselves Old Catholics. I'm interested in why an *independent* Catholic church would need to be linked with the Old Catholics? Why Old Catholics specifically?
    I'm guessing they would see any of group as being joined to and subsumed in them, so the cost of supervision and belonging would be in a certain loss of identity? I'm also guessing that you would give OCs communion anyway, so it wouldn't be to be in communion.
    And finally, the rather obvious fact that they're Dutcb and you're Irish could be the source of some interesting culture shock :o)

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    1. Good points.

      I mention them as a very obvious group of non-Roman catholics only.

      In fact I have discovered that Utrect is quite caught up in their own rules and arrangements with the COI etc.

      So a truly independent body would be best with an openness to all.

      Anyone who approaches for Communion at The Oratory receives it.

      Delete
  24. I encourage everyone to sign up and join this Independent Catholic Church as a matter of urgency, get congregations going up and down the land, and over in the land of the Saxons too if y'all like. Then once you are there and living out church life as you like it, you can leave shameless Papists such as myself to get on with our lives in peace unhindered by full-time malcontents.

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    1. Was the Founder of Christianity not the aboriginal malcontent?

      I wonder if He is happy to leave you in your comfortable papism?

      Delete
    2. In a word, no. He was Divine, sent by the Father with a specific mission. That mission did not involve being a malcontent for the sake of it. His actions had a purpose. When something needed changing, He overturned the tables of the money-changers. What do the malcontents on this blog do? Complain each and every day ad nauseum about a tiny handful of seminarians, rehearsing the same tired old pearl-clutching faux outrage. What does that achieve? Precisely nothing.

      If I'm a comfortable papist, you're a comfortable malcontent. Perhaps we all need shaken up.

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    3. Game on, so if you are intending to shake up the Papists, let's shake up that Oratory and install a few kneelers as there's no chance I will be standing during the consecration...

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    4. I have no objection to kneelers and if the folk here want them they will get them.

      If you ever come here I will provide you a kneeler.

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    5. Thank you, appreciated :-)

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    6. Must admit, I like to kneel at the consecration.

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    7. Me too, nothing to do with bowing down to Rome or bishops or the like. Just a humble position before God.

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  25. Ye haa the dust is flying in the church world today. I'm so glad that this blog is finally talking about what the pews want to see and of course that is CHANGE.

    Pat I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that Gaynooth is just that Gay and no Bishop cares but you. Glad to see you doing a bit of good sheparding leading the sheep to newer pastures.
    I agree with the anom 16:24 says get on with it lead the way and leave them to thier mire. Put your hand to the plough and never look back.

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  26. Oh for the love of God Big Hank, some people are gay, the straights can't be bothered putting themselves forward for the priesthood (and no it is not because Maynooth is so gay, because the wider public didn't know about all that until recently) so give thanks to God that gay men have the goodness to put themselves forward for priestly training, just as Pat himself did, and pray that God gives them the grace to be excellent priests as countless thousands across the world already are. Otherwise you'd have no priests.

    I wonder how the gays will fare in this new ICC...what the rules will be for sexual conduct during their priestly training...?

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    1. In the proposed ICC celibacy would be optional for all men and women preparing for ministry and during their ministry.

      Gay and lesbian people would be as welcome to ministry as straight people.

      I think we would all be bound by the basic Christian tenet that we should use our sexuality to show love and not to hurt, use or abuse.

      BUT we would not be telling 15 year old boys that masturbation was a "mortal sin" that would get them sent to Hell!

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    2. Glad to hear there will be no medieval hocus pocus! What about promiscuous sexuality?

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    3. Promiscuous sexuality is not just an issue for priests and seminarians is it?

      Are not all Christians morally bound to use sexuality in the context of love and caring?

      Of course many of us fail on the sexual level.

      But I think promiscuous sex in a seminary rips the ass out of it - excuse the pun :-)

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    4. I agree with you. Though I am not at all bothered if two seminarians get together and have a relationship. I have no problem in ignoring silly rules. Promiscuous sexuality on the other hand...

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    5. If your gay and want to be a priest, I'm all for it but don't hide who you are in a closet. If you wannbe married and minister then do so.

      If your wife, sister, mother or Granny wants to be a priest then go for it.

      As for Maynooth being a recent revelation, come of it, its been openly gay for the 30 years I've known about it. I know gay priests right across the land who don't have the cahoonies to stand up for what they are.

      The nature of humanity is that we are sexual beings even Jesus recognised that fact. Remember we are made in his likeness therefore sex is GOOD. GOD IS GOOD

      But lets talk about this "IICC" it inevitably will take on rules and regulations and then will come exculsions, followed by all that has been the downfall of all other churches.

      Lets face it there's not a church that would give me a position.

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    6. That's your choice Big Hank - what right do you have to demand that other people reveal their sexuality publicly? If people choose not to disclose their sexual preferences that is their business, not yours.

      In any event, this flippant "Gaynooth is that gay" and the multitude of similar remarks we have to endure reveals a casual and unthinking prejudice against gay men. Perhaps it is subconscious but nevertheless it is there. You persist with comments that "Maynooth has been openly gay".

      What of it? What exactly is the point you are making? There are indeed many gay priests who do not act out sexually. It may well have been known to you for 30 years that there were gays in Maynooth, or that gay sexual activity was taking place, (I am not sure which you refer to), but it very definitely wasn't something that people in the parishes who take no specific interest in ecclesiastical affairs were aware of.

      I agree with you that as sexual beings, sex is a good thing. But there is a dichotomy between those words and a "Gaynooth is that gay" sort of attitude.

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    7. I thought i was quite plain and simply blunt but ok I will try and say it again so you msy understand.
      If you want to become a priest and want to have a sex life then declare it beforehand and have the life you want.
      If you believe that being celibate is a sacrifice then fine even if you are hetro or gay but again dont hide who you are.
      If you after taking holy orders decide celibacy is not for you, then get out be free and true to yourself.

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  27. +Pat, I was interested in a comment you wrote on here the other day, in response to a conversation about the apparent withdrawal of Georgeous, Puck and others from social media. You said you had proof that individuals concerned were still up to their old antics, under the guise of false identities. Are you saying that Gorgeous is still using social media for his private pursuits?

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    1. At this stage I would say that "it's hard to go barefooted when you have been used to wearing shoes" :-)

      I can tell you that things are being monitored.

      I hope I can tell you more in the very near future.

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  28. In the states there's a parish that has signed up with the Charismatic Episcopals but use the nouus ordo in the old translation. Despite their name the CEs now have a Catholic line, probably via Duarte-Costa.

    BTW, hasn't most of the papal church been low church since the days of Paul VI? Most C of I churches seem more Catholic in appearance than your chapel.

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    1. Really?

      How many COI churches have a tabernacle?

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    2. Don't know, but many Church of England churches do. The Catholic Church in Ireland is so low that it makes the low Church of Ireland look high church.

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  29. I have been corresponding with Michael Byrne for sometime now through popular social media, and can categorically say that the claims made by Bishop Buckley and others on this blog are untrue and malicious gossip.

    Michael has been greatly affected by the comments on this blog, it was he who drew me to it several months ago, soon after it all began last August. Through my contact with him, I feel he is a beautiful and gentle individual, who has been susceptible to heinous bullying.

    He will be ordained, and will be valued by myself and others, wherever he is sent.

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    1. That seems to confirm, if true, that he is on popular social media?

      Perhaps you would like to share more of his beauty and gentleness with us?

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    2. Are you a "silverdaddy"?

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    3. He is someone I have had considerable contact with, and yes he is certainly my on social media. Through our conversations, he has struck me as being a very pleasant and kind person, who has been awfully affected by the comments made on this site. He has denied the allegations made, and is assured by the support of many.

      And no, I'm not a SilverDaddy, the complete opposite in fact.

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    4. Why does he even bother to concern himself with what people here think!

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    5. @18:56, I agree. The commentators on this blog are a little parochial let's be frank.

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  30. Deacon Byrne is welcome to publish a totally unedited refutation/ statement on this Blog at any time. Please tell him that from me.

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    1. I think he would be too nervous to, having seen the reception Fr X got several months ago following his article. Michael is a loving and kind person, who has been brutally affected by vicious and unseemly allegations made by yourself and others on this site. Even I was too nervous to post for a while, but finally felt the need to defend him from any further hurt. He means something to me, as he does to many people. I am younger than him too, so am certainly not in the 'SilverDaddy' category.

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    2. Are you a seminarian?

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    3. Not at all, I am someone who has been made aware of how much this blog has damaged Michael

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    4. Are you gay?

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    5. No, completely heterosexual

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    6. Why do you assume I am male?

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    7. I know its silly really. Because all G's friends and those he goes on holidays with are all female.

      Silly us.

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    8. @18:41, where do you fall on the Kinsey scale?

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    9. I think if the deacon is living a celibate life in preparation for ordination he would receive a very different response from Fr X, who plainly doesn't give a shit.
      The trouble is that (particularly in your twenties) it is perfectly possible both to be a kind, sensitive, nervous soul and to screw up yourself and others with such behaviours as drink, drugs and promiscuous sex.
      The real danger is that some of the people who behave like that never get it together because their personalities are too fragmented, in fact they have often been abused themselves. The damage that these people can do is rivalled only by the goid *some* people will see in them
      In fact they will persuade some people of their total goodness and kindness, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
      I'm not actually talking about MB but saying why those in formation should be expected to live as they profess, because some will turn out to be psychopathic monsters.
      I'm a Kinsey 6, myself.

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    10. @18:49 I am a woman, Michael has female friends too!

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    11. Is he gay?

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    12. His sexuality has been known to his family since he was 13

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    13. That is not an answer!

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    14. Yes he's gay!

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  31. The last time I spoke to Deacon Byrne was on Satueday August 6th at 10.28 pm when I told him I would offer Mass the following day at 12 noon for him.

    He replied at 10.29

    "Great. Thanks. Appreciate that".

    I have retained a two hour texted conversation with him.

    On Monday August 8th I messaged him:

    3.08 pm: Can you tell me who you are in Barcelona with? Pat. I know the answer already. Truth test !!!

    3.28 pm No answer Mike is a YES answer.

    3.56 pm DM is aware of all.

    And Diarmuid Martin was / is aware of all.

    The number I spoke to him on was 085 82XXXXX9

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  32. Do we really need to know all of this? I fail to see the real relevance..

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  33. Glad to see my post of last Tuesday has started a long overdue debate. Clarification as to what is necessary and what can be modified is important. The seven sacraments, a valid ministry,scripture, quality liturgy, focus on service etc etc. So much to be explored. So, come on Tom, Sean et al and all you other interested readers. Let' s push the boat out and let out the nets for a catch!

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  34. An Independent Catholic Church? People already working out the a la carte menu... We will have this, we won't have that.. We don't see the need for this... We will introduce this.. We will abolish that... and so on ad nauseum. Nothing new under the sun. Martin Luther, the dissident ex-monk has got there long before you. He went through the same process of pick and choose.. the same story.. Deja vue.. It's already happened, guys! You're playing catch-up. And there's a true saying - those who don't learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them.

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    1. Is that what Rome keeps doing?

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    2. Ok, let's really upset a few people and who knows, maybe excommunicate myself before we've even started!! lol.. When the first caveman had a break from the simply surviving they would have wondered in amazement at the heavens and been terrified of things that thanks to science, we are now not afraid. So they would begin to ascribe to this greater force various attributes...so simplistically, it's all makey upey! The bible, like other great works both ascribed as scripture or not, man's attempt to work out who man is, who God is, and what's it all about. I saw some great graffiti once, "Keep your gods on a lead!" and I recall a rock music friend that I've since lost touch with, telling me about an album cover that stated "Man created god in his own image!" Ascribing to God our own agenda and using that to control others, ok, sometimes well meaningly, is still in my book erroneous. God is love. Our challenge is to engage with that reality, now, in the complexities of our daily lives using the received wisdom of generations past and present to help us. I don't believe God requires a blood sacrifice to atone for sin, Isaiah, suggests as much and I think such a God would be a monster!! However, life feeds on life, so a saying from neo paganism goes, and the annual round of death and rebirth in nature as well as predation has this existential fact woven into the fabric of material existence. So crucial is this that it's no wonder that ancient cultures are full of gods whose myths retell this particular old, old story. It's wonderful that the Jesus myth should so profoundly incorporate this and the nature of his death on a cruciform shape with his broken body hanging in it's centre has for later generations, thankfully removed from the sheer horrors of this particular form of execution, demonstrated love unto death. So perhaps at heart it is semantics. To me, we are called to love, even unto death. To sacrifice ourselves, in Christ, to this highest of ideals, whether that is foregoing our self in small areas of life, or in literally laying down our life for our friends or in the cause of that which is right in the face of adversity. In the defence of the wholeness of life, in healing the division of sin, perhaps my creationist view and the Salvationist view are not separate after all. So, 20:31, I would welcome everyone of good intent who tries to avoid hurting others and then we can live our lives together in an ongoing conversation how to live that in Christ, in practice. Ps. The ancients saw myth as holistic history relating ongoing cultural import, not like our scientific history of exact dates and verbatum accounts, which even these once passed beyond living memory, to my mind, change character.

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    3. MournemanMichael13 May 2017 at 00:17

      Hi Tom. There are many things you say I can identify with. But there's a lack of cohesiveness hard to follow when you say a lot in same comment. Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to understand more of your views.
      MMM

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    4. Thank you Michael, I fully accept your critique and muse it may be that any further knowledge / education is essentially self taught, were it more formal, I guess my tutors would have helped me address this. Alternatively I have often wondered if I might be slightly on the autistic spectrum, aspergers perhaps, as I think I am right in saying that a rush of thoughts and going off at tangents may be indicative? Either way, I'll try and be more concise and pray that we all have much time together over the years to get to know each other more fully. :-)

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  35. Oh the way the adherents of the RC church get all uppity when they discover other people don't think they own the trademark on Catholicity!
    Pat you could join one of the continuing Anglican churches and really upset your critics by being Anglo-Catholic lol.
    I'm seeing an interesting unspoken implication that Protestant is the natural tendency of ex_Roman Catholics, which just isn't so. In fact the comments here are interesting as a summary of church history, viz:
    'We are Catholic, you're not'
    'No you're not, I am'.
    ' Deacon N is an evil man to be avpided'
    'No, Deacon N is a misunderstood, holy, kind person'
    ...and so on. This is literally church history in a nutshell.

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    1. Ha ha!... It's certainly this blog in a nutshell!

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  36. +Pat, how can this discussion be progressed if it simply becomes part of yesterday's blog tomorrow? How and where can the conversation be continued and developed?? Tom's facebook page, a forum...how?? Don't let it die!

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    1. Of course it will die! Read what the wisest of today's bloggers have to say on the matter... It's over... already passe
      .

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    2. That Facebook page is a joke surely ? the photo of Pat looks weird really weird was it photoshopped ?

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  37. Here is the link to the facebook group I've created. Pat, if it's all ok with you in regard to where I have mentioned you and your invitational offer of episcopal oversight, please just publish this comment. I've made you an admin as well. If you wish me to amend anything, please get in touch. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1466505896707273/?hc_ref=SEARCH

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    Replies
    1. Good man. Thank you.

      I prefer ministry / servantship over oversight.

      But I understand the term :-)

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  38. That they may be one as you Father are in me and I am in You.
    Suggestions on this blog - if followed through would indicate that there will be a proliferation of religious tin huts and converted double garages.
    Not exactly what Jesus had in mind!!
    Seems like wise-up time!!!!!

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    1. Could that be worse than Vatican States (1929), cardinal' kitchens at Euro 50,000, etc, billionaire Vatican banks, child abuse cover up etc.

      Double garages where children are safe sounds more Christ like?

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    2. Not to mention sperm covered Maynooths.

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    3. @22:53 Unity in diversity / Diversity in unity.

      One God, who is love, the nature of the highest love is total self giving. The totality of creation is the body of Christ manifest in myriad forms. These myriad forms look to their essential unity as members of the body of Christ, one in the Spirit, one in the Lord, One God in saecula saeculorum, Amen.

      I cannot see how coming together to worship God detracts from Christ's prayer? And as Pat pointed out earlier, is not a garage the modern equivalent of a stable?

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