WHY DO MODERN CATHOLIC GAY SEMINARIES HAVE A GAY SUBCULTURE?
That is a very valid question we must ask even given the ongoing controversies at our own Maynooth seminary.
During the night the following email arrived to me from a Maynooth source:
"First picture
Conor 'Jasmine' Gannon with Shane 'Aladdin' Costello and Joseph 'Monkey' Gormley on Jasmine's floor in Maynooth. (Picture from Snapchat)
Second picture
The girls in cafe bonbon in Maynooth posing.
Third picture
Jasmine meeting Francis"
The Maynooth source included the following pictures in the email. These picture had already been published on the internet by one of the seminarians in his Snapchat account.
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As you can see from the email the three seminarians nicknames are "Jasmine", "Aladdin" and "Monkey".
A former seminarian who was in St Andrew's Seminary in Scotland when the gay and disgraced Cardinal Keith O'Brien was the spiritual director there, said the following
"Homosexual behaviour was relatively commonplace at the institution, a
former country home with more than 50 rooms, which had opened to trainee
priests in the Fifties and closed in 1986.
‘At a conservative guess, at least a
third of my peers had gay feelings for other seminarians during their time at
St Andrew’s,’ says one alumnus, ordained in 1982. ‘For many gay men at the
time, particularly from rural communities, the priesthood was one of the few
career paths you could pursue without having to spend your life answering
awkward questions about why you weren’t yet married.’
Another former seminarian, who dropped
out after less than a year and is now openly gay, says the homosexual identity
of many of his peers was an ‘open secret’ among staff and students.
In the tight-knit, secluded
environment, daily rituals such as lighting candles or preparing the altar for
Mass became loaded with homo-eroticism, he said.
‘We all knew it went on. When alcohol
came out, you’d see people becoming more tactile,’ he says.
‘The irony was that the gay seminarians
would generally be the ones to take the most conservative positions when we’d
discuss sexual issues. It was the hypocrisy that I couldn’t stand.’"
This seminarian goes so far as to say that even lighting the altar candles for Mass was "loaded with homoeroticism".
Another source:
Many priests and
theologians have commented about the gay sub-cultures in Catholic seminaries:
An anonymous priest from the Boston area
commented in an interview with Joe Fitzgerald of the Boston Herald:
"there's a subculture of gay priests and everyone knows it. I went
through seminary with a lot of them and got hit on. And when I reported it, I
was harassed to a point where, emotionally, it was very difficult to get
ordained. I'm not the only one who had to fight to get through it; I know
guys who left because of it. It was clear there was a cabal tacitly saying,
'Don't bother reporting this stuff.' You wouldn't believe the
self-justifications, like, 'Well, celibacy only applies to not getting
married, so since we're not getting married we can do whatever we want.' It
was horrible, with a lot of intimidation, but I stayed because I felt this
was what God was calling me to do; besides, if I'd walked, they'd have won." 8
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Father McBrien, a theologian at the University of
Notre Dame, commented that some seminary students "...who feel they
have a genuine vocation for priesthood go into a seminary and feel very
alienated by the gay culture. I don't say this in any homophobic sense. It's
just the reality." 2
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Pope John Paul II held a meeting with the
American cardinals which dealt with the clerical sex scandals. Afterward,
Bishop Wilton Gregory, head of the U.S. Conference of Catholic
Bishops said: "One of the difficulties we do face in
seminary life or recruitment is made possible when there does exist a
homosexual atmosphere or dynamic that makes heterosexual men think twice
[about entering.] It is an ongoing struggle to make sure the Catholic priesthood
is not dominated by homosexual men." 9
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R. Scott Appleby, a history professor at Notre
Dame, said: "People I know quite well have left the seminary either
in disgust because people are not keeping vows, or in alienation because
they’re not gay. In some cases it’s a serious problem." 3
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The Most Rev. Wilton Gregory said: "[T]here
does exist a homosexual atmosphere or dynamic that makes heterosexual men
think twice."3
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The Rev. Charles Bouchard, president of the
Aquinas Institute of Theology in St. Louis said: "I think straight
priests and seminarians shouldn’t be whining. I just don’t think it’s a big
deal." 3
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Father Donald Cozzens wrote: "What impact
does the gay subcultrue have on the straight priest and
seminarian?....straight men in a predominantly or significantly gay
environment commonly experience chronic destabilization, a common symptom of
which is self doubt...Their psychic confusion, understandably, has
significant implications for both their spiritual vitality and emotional
balance." 10
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Timothy Radcliffe, Master of the Order of
Preachers, commented on the emergence of a homosexual sub-culture within a
seminary or religious order: "It can threaten the unity of the
community; it can make it harder for the brethren to practice the chastity
which we have vowed. It can put pressure on brethren to think of themselves
in a way that is not central to their vocation as preachers of the Kingdom..." 11
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PAT SAYS:
It is quite clear that seminaries like Maynooth have a gay subculture.
You see this in the flamboyant behaviour of some seminarians - their love of dressing up in lace - and the fact that they refer to each other by female names and referring to each other as "girls".
It also shows itself in two seminarians having "exclusive friendships" or in seminarians belonging to a feminine "gay gang".
Some seminarians have talked of seminarians changing diocese so that after ordination they can be in the same diocese as their "Friend".
There is talk about "goings on" at World Youth Day and in "The Meadow" in Lourdes after dark.
I ask myself where this gay subculture comes from.
Is it emanating from:
1. The twisted Catholic teaching on homosexuality and sexuality in general?
2. The fact that the seminary / priesthood allows you to live a double life - a "respectable life" as a seminarian / priest and a secret life as a gay man?
3. Having a seminarian / priest partner / lover is safer from exposure than having a lay partner / lover?
4. The fact that many bishops and seminary staff have a gay orientation themselves and are "preferential" to gay candidates for priesthood?
I would very much appreciate the views of Blog readers on this complex issue.
The gayest thing in this post is actually the decoration of the church. Not what you'd call simple or manly, it looks like a flower festival.
ReplyDeleteSeminarians have had girls' nicknames forever - to me it doesn't necessarily mean anything about Jasmine but publishing these names is very silly.
A lot of current seminarians are wonderful flower arrangers.
DeleteI can just imagine all the screaming going on up ladders arranging the flowers above the altar. LOL.
DeleteIn religious orders one of the ways in which a special friendship between student master and student can be noticed is where the student master gives preferential treatment to a student by shortening the time they have to spend before profession or ordination or both while his teammates have to take the longer route.
ReplyDeleteAw...... were you discriminated against?
DeleteIt comes from the fact that heterosexual men have next to zero interest in the priesthood so people ought to be grateful that gay men have taken up the mantle. And no, the heterosexuals have zero interest independent of any knowledge of strange goings on in the seminaries - they just have no interest. So you put a lot of gay men together you will find some type of sub-culture developing among a certain group.
DeleteThe most odious character in all of this is the source (was that you in Harrington Street the other day or maybe I'm blaming you unfairly when in fact the source is still in Santi Quattro for a week or two yet.
It wouldn't bother me at all if we had two married gay priest in the presbytery. I have worked with gay men and they are very caring.
DeleteNo stereotyping here at all. I suppose you think red heads have fiery tempers and the French smell of garlic.
DeleteSorry to sound cynical, but have no time at all for Roman Catholic clergy. (Useless, self-serving, Christ-betraying whores.)
ReplyDeleteMC, do you not accept that there are a small number of good guys too?
DeleteI feel so sorry for the good guys. Our priest is excellent and I suspect he suffers horribly. On the plus side the parish love him to bits and are very supportive.
DeleteHave never met a Roman Catholic priest who truly regarded himself as a servant. Christ commanded this, but these whores have NEVER obeyed him.
DeletePeople have been play acting in different shapes and forms for centuries. There are the college houses in America the different lodges and groups like the Masons. Problem with the church is that when it becomes a subculture it is the public who suffer because many of the alleged caregivers are cought up in their own fantasy world.
ReplyDeleteSorry about the last comment. Too much drink taken at an all night party!
ReplyDeleteNo worries. It could happen to a bishop :-)
DeleteThe party looks like it was really fun:
Deletehttps://www.google.co.uk/search?q=traffic+wardens+party&safe=off&client=ms-android-sonymobile&prmd=sniv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzz52O8aPUAhXKKlAKHcSTDAEQ_AUICygD&biw=360&bih=512#imgrc=4WT4NU_MiX_e4M:
Bishop P., that comment wasn't from me.
Delete10.37 Whats the above address which is a load of pictures have to do with anything. Can the genuine church in Ireland please stand up and be counted.I'm sure you are out there.My cousin lives in a rural parish, ordinary folk doing the best they can. I sometimes wonder if they are aware of the kind of stuff we see on here.....?
DeleteIt was a picture of Magna Carta and his fellow traffic wardens partying away, celebrating their record number of penalty notices this week. How's the hangover?
Delete16.40 Thank you. I think I understand-sort of. Hangover? Haven't had one in nearly 20 years. I'm not immune from the odd headache if that counts though 😀
DeleteI must say that when I was in Clonliffe - 1970 - 1973 and Waterford - 1973 - 1976 there was no gay subculture. The atmosphere was quite balanced and sane.
ReplyDeleteOf course there were individuals having gay sex - more in Clonliffe than in Waterford - but there were also very obvious heterosexual men.
In my ordination class of 1976 there were 6.
Two left the priesthood later to marry women. Two of us are still in ministry. One died. The other was not ordained.
Could have done with a party last night, Magna!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThe comedian Al Porter wrote in the Irish Times that the best thing about the catholic World Youth Day in Sydney was the sex he had with a young priest!
ReplyDeleteSydney was 2008. Al was 15 and definitely not there.
DeleteMea Culpa! It was the WYD in Germany.
DeleteCologne was 2005. Could you have meant Madrid in
Delete2011?
It was Madrid :When did he lose his faith? “I went over to World Youth Day in Madrid. And I smoked weed for the first time and I was drinking and I was really attracted to this young priest who was there. And there were other people on the pilgrimage who were shaking and crying and saying they had experienced something divine. I felt nothing. It was really overcrowded, and Pope Benedict was quite underwhelming, and I remember thinking, ‘Everything I’ve been talking about that’s divine is really human.’
Delete“And then I ended up having a night of booze and weed and sleeping with that priest. We had wild, euphoric, wonderful sex, and I went, ‘You know what? [Being a priest] is not for me.’”
And then people say the devil is not real! Scripture says he goes about "like s roaring lion seeking whom he may devour" The greater the fall from grace, the bigger his conquest.
DeleteAnd the devil's greatest advantage and achievement has been to convince people that he doesn't exist!
Delete'The greater the fall from grace'...??? Are you havin' us on? NO Roman Catholic priest has very far to fall in terms of grace: they are all Christ-betrayin' whores, almost by definition.
Delete( Useless parasites the lot of them.)
Are you filled with hatred? It certainly sounds like it
DeleteDon't fall for it at 19.35, MC is on one of his predictable tirades again. Just ignore him, it's been bliss without his ranting on here recently but that hasn't lasted long I notice. He thinks by calling Priests the vilest of names on here will get people to respond but most of us don't fall for it anymore. I'm replying to you 19.35 by the way and not MC.
DeleteYes he is.
DeleteDisappointed you didn't publish my replies, Bishop P.
Delete@Magna Carta
DeleteObviously he didn't publish them because they were rude. People have repeatedly spoken to you about the way you feel free to abuse people on here, insult their intelligence, shout them down, and so on. I think he has actually given you a lot of leeway on this blog and you routinely get away with behaviour which is beyond insulting.
I note you commented at 02:58 - another all-night bender? Are all of your insulting comments written under the affluence of incohol?
17:52, I'm at my intellectual best when passed.
DeleteAnd I have never insulted the intelligence of any one on this blog, because I have never cone across anyone with the requisite intelligence.
By the way, this 'bender' is now in its third day. A record for me.
Send out for a fish supper and have a big mug of strong tea as a change from the booze! Do you good.
DeleteThe former BBC religious correspondence, Carole Wyatt says;
ReplyDelete‘So, you say in your letter to the pope, that the clergy is full of homosexuals. Is that really the case?’
Her incredulous tone was an insult to peoples’ intelligence.
It is fairly clear to anyone with a remotely normal life that a requirement of celibacy for the priesthood is simply asking for trouble, particularly nowadays with blogs like this justifiably exposing hypocrisy and scandal on an almost daily basis.
ReplyDeletePat, Joseph left seminary for a man two years ago. Why are they on Conor Jasmine's floor in seminary???
ReplyDeleteScandalous!
A ‘subculture’ is a cultural group within a larger culture. But there’s no larger culture, they’re all gay.
Deletewhats scandalous about leaving the seminary to fall in love? whats scandalous about being a gay man and having seminarians as friends and possibly visiting them? get a grip!
DeleteIt gives the appearance of scandal.
Delete11.54 Is the larger culture not the island of Ireland and Everyone on it? Is part of the problem not that some maynoothites allegedly are ill prepared for the real world after going through what Maynooth exposes them to. Ive never been there and am only going off what I read here. My experience of clerical life in Ireland is well outdated by now I presume
DeletePerhaps, but seminaries, well, the last two remaining in the British Isles have become more or less extensions of the gay scene, or community if you like... the unacceptable face of gay life.
DeleteDear oh dear! On the floor! Very sinful and here's me sprawling sinfully on my carpet this very minute! Getting a dirty look from the dog and no wonder...
DeleteWho is Conor Jasmine? Who is Joseph?
ReplyDeleteThanks Pat, two very nice looking seminarians , Shane Costello is always my favourite , he is like a Conor Cunningham of Galway in his day.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to think it's a beauty contest.
DeletePat things are not good in Tuam, Sr.Breege is not happy !
ReplyDeleteShe probably didnt like the sandwiches.
DeleteThese are old pics , Joe has left ages ago. Go back to the source and get up to date ones. These pics are inside someones rooms, so therefore the person taking the pics was also there??? has he not revealed his identity NOW?
ReplyDeleteMaynooth needs Tim Ratcliff to come and sort it out.
ReplyDeleteSometimes when a Director of Priestly Formation (whatever that is!) tries to block someone from ordination/profession (successfully or otherwise) it can be the result of sexual frustration or unrequited sexual desire on his part.
ReplyDeleteIn total agreement with the above. A good mate of mine was having issues in a seminary , he told his vocations director and bishop. Response was : put your head down and get on with it , if you want to get ordained. Now please tell me thats not ok?
DeleteWho is the Bishop in the first photograph - is it for real or a most unbecoming windup?
ReplyDeleteEnlighten us, please, Bishop Buckley!
Any update on TUAM PAt
ReplyDeleteNo. But I am sure there are many sad hearts there.
DeletePourquoi? Où est l'hippopotame pygmée.
Delete@21.51
DeleteEssayez de regarder dans votre miroir!
Alladin ,Jasmine (God's gift in Persian) and Monkey are all oriential names. Maybe the boys on a carpet were attempting to be funny? God forbid Priests should relax or have a sense of humour?
ReplyDeleteGod forbid priests. Full stop. (Useless parasites.)
DeleteIs being gay all about sex? Is that it?
DeletePretty much.. yeah
DeleteWell I've met several homosexuals and without exception they were all well turned out, kept house beautifully and were kind to their mothers.
DeleteI made a serious effort, beginning eight years ago, to turn away from homophobia in order to understand gays better, to be more sympathetic, and supportive of greater legal rights for them. Your comment almost makes me wish I hadn't bothered.
DeleteDoesn't it bother you that someone wants you only for sex and not for yourself. I used girls that way and I'm ashamed of myself for it. I wish I could turn back the clock to make things right.
Don't leave yourself like me. Value people for themselves. Fall in love with them. Are gays capable of love? Real love! Your comment nakes me ask this.
What the heck has your comment to do with my question?
DeleteIs being gay just about sexually scoring? Because if it is, I'm reverting to homophobic type.
Don't worry, Magna, your advice not to be like you is the one piece of your advice I will follow without hesitation.
DeleteMaggie, I never knew you were a Lesbian.
DeleteDidn't you? What an idiot you are!
Delete@23.20
DeleteLol
One of the surest tell-tale signs that a student master or 'director of priestly formation' is experiencing unreturned sexual desire is when he tries to block the recruit who is the object of his sexual interest from profession/ordination on the grounds that the student is suffering from deep-seated anger, which no one else, apart from the director, recognises.
ReplyDeleteWhen is the Tuam story going to break Pat?
ReplyDeleteQuand ils trouvent le petit hippopotame.
DeletePat , what else did you source say in the email. if sending pics of these 3 characters , are we to believe there is something going on ? are these part of the 2016 class in maynooth?
ReplyDeletePat from reading your blog about that poor tuam deacon , it makes me think about the two other famous deacons that have featured here. If the bishop of tuam could have a meeting with a young man on the sunday before he was to be ordained and get him to cancel his ordaination , there might be hope for the other two that they may not be ordained. This tuam boy went through 7 years of seminary , why does the bishop call a halt to it at the last min? , also when all the shit was happening last summer in maynooth , why didnt Bishop neary not check then?
ReplyDeleteIt has only been deferred... pending further enquiries.
Delete'deferred' in Gaynooth means there is trouble. where have you been the past year?
DeleteBecause at that time they didnt tell him what was going on the sandwiches.
DeleteWhat?. The Ordination or the Sandwiches.
DeleteWas it on this thread or another one that Dame Maggie claimed to have enchanted not just one, but several women? That's as convincing as the similar claims by Amy (Junior Infirmary) Martin, and Brian ('where's the microphone') Darcy. LOL
ReplyDelete