Sunday, 17 September 2017

MEDJUGORJE IS NOT FOR REAL





Medjugorje and Propaganda
by Marco Corvaglia
As early as 1985, La Civiltà Cattolica, the historic Jesuit magazine, wrote, about Medjugorje, "a large number of books, articles, interviews, videos, movies, radio and TV reports, which, in fact, give - and not only to us - the impression of an advertising campaign very well and diffusely organized” [Giovanni Caprile S. J., Circa i fatti di Medjugorje, "La Civiltà Cattolica", No. 3238, 18 May 1985, p. 363].

Perhaps there is an inaccuracy in this description. The advertising campaign was not and is not "diffusely organized". It grows in a completely natural way and is self-feeding: in many cases, those who make propaganda have in turn been victims of it.
It remains only to understand why it happens. And it is not difficult.

Let's start with the books: whether we are dealing with Medjugorje, or, for example, with any magical or mysterious belief, the market is dominated by publications in favor of the phenomena at issue.
Currently, in Italy, hundreds of books on astrology or on UFOs are on the market, nearly all written by and for "believers". With regard to reiki (a New Age practice), on the market there are 61 books, of which only one is critical.
As to Medjugorje, the situation is analogous.
What does it mean?

Since publishers are commercial entities and invest only in what can increase their gains, the alleged wonderful and mysterious phenomena, although there are deep differences between them, mainly attract the attention of those who believe in them already (and not of the skeptics who are more likely to ignore than to criticize them).

Stuart Sutherland, Professor of Psychology at Sussex University, noted:

The paranormal is news, its absence is not. In 1979 an excellent book (by David Marks and Richard Kammann), which debunked Uri Geller's tricks and other alleged paranormal phenomena, was turned down by over thirty American publishers, all of whom were competing to publish books endorsing psychic phenomena.
[Stuart Sutherland, Irrationality, Pinter & Martin Ltd, London, 2013, p. 225]

If we extend this scrutiny to the other mass-media, we must remember that these are also legitimate activities for profit. Therefore, they must give the general public what it wants.
London University Professor Stephen Law wrote:

Tabloid newspapers and TV production companies know that, as a rule, their audiences tend to be more interested in dramatic and extraordinary tales than in articles or programs that shed doubts on such stories. As a result, even while pretending to be "balanced", TV programs on the paranormal are often little more than puffs for self-styled psychics. Doubts, if voiced at all, tend to be in the background.
[Strephen Law, Believing Bullshit, Prometheus Books, Amherst, New York, 2011, p. 177]

The popular monthly of the Pauline Fathers, Jesus, in a survey which explored the way in which TV addresses the phenomena linked to religion, highlighted:

The TV preferred the easy and profitable way of turning into a spectacle the "religious fact" - both in the information and in fiction - instead of trying a more difficult but perhaps more respectful path of reflection and analysis.
[Laura Badaracchi, Schermo divino, "Jesus", No. 5/2004, p. 53]

Arnaldo Nesti, Catholic scholar, former Professor of Sociology of Religion at the University of Florence, in the same survey said that TV production is "in line with an external devotion and with sensationalism" [ibid.] and added that "religious communication remains in a context devoid of a critical aspect, as if there were the concern of not being respectful" [ibid., p. 52].

It seems that this is not so much a sincere respect as an instrumental use of certain religious phenomena. In any case, what happens is that an ample space is given to news reports and stories inspired by the sensationalism and, if the arguments are likely to hurt the feelings of many people, not too much room is left for criticism, not to irritate large parts of the public. It is clear that this does not help an informed and objective assessment of the facts.
Marco Corvaglia

The Bloody Handkerchief
by Marco Corvaglia
In September 1981 it was rumoured through the village that, near Medjugorje, an unidentified driver had been the protagonist of a, by the way, unoriginal story, that was, as noted by Joachim Bouflet in his book Faussaires de Dieu, the repetition of a pious legend common in European folklore for centuries.

The issue concerns us because the locals asked Vicka to ask the Virgin if the fact was true.
Vicka herself, in the well-known interview-book with Father Bubalo, declared it:

VICKA: Someone told us to ask the Virgin if that was the way it was.
[Janko Bubalo, A Thousand Encounters with the Blessed Virgin Mary in Medjugorje. The Seer Vicka Speaks of Her Experiences, Friends of Medjugorje, Chicago, 1987, p. 92]

The story in brief is this: a taxi driver, like Vicka reports, "was returning to Medjugorje when, somewhere in Cerno some poor man stopped the car" [Ibid., p. 91, therefore, the "seer" presents it as a real and concrete fact].
That man was Jesus, who gave the driver a bloody handkerchief and told him to throw it into the river.
Going on, the same taxi driver met the Madonna, who got the man to give her the bloody handkerchief and then told him that if he had instead thrown it into the river, there would have been the end of the world.

Well, according to Vicka, the Madonna confirmed that the fact had actually occurred this way [see also Ogledalo Pravde. Biskupski ordinarijat u Mostaru o navodnim ukazanjima i porukama u Međugorju (The Diocesan Curia of Mostar on the Alleged Apparitions and Messages of Medjugorje), Mostar, 2001, p. 110]


Indeed, let us look at the diary of the "seer" [first book], on 4 September 1981.
Here are the pages related to the issue:

[Transcription: 72. ukazanje. PETAK, 4. 9. '81 god. Danas smo čekali kod Marije Gospu. Ja, Marija, Ivanka i Jakov smo počeli moliti u 6 i 20 min. Došla je Gospa odmah. […] Pitali smo za čovjeka koji je sreo Isusa u putu kada je razvozio narod svojim putem. Sreo je jednog čovjeka svog u krvi i dao mu je taj čovjek a on je bio Isus maramicu krvavu i rekao da je baci u rijeku. Vozeći dulje sreo je jednu ženu a to je bila Blažena Djevica Marija i Ona je molila čovjeka da mu da krvavu maramicu. Čovjek joj je pružio svoju maramicu ali Gospa je tražila krvavu. Kad joj je čovjek davo krvavu Gospa je rekla: Da mi je nisi dao, bio bi strašni sud. Gospa je rekla da je to istina.]
Translation:

72nd apparition. Friday 4. 9. '81.
Today we have waited for the Virgin at Marija’s. Marija, Ivanka, Jakov and I have begun to pray at 6 and 20 minutes. Our Lady has come soon.
We asked about the man who met Jesus on the road while driving some people to their destination. He met a man covered with blood and that man (he was Jesus) gave him the bloody handkerchief and told him to throw it into the river. Going on, he met a woman and she was the Blessed Virgin Mary and she asked the man to give her the bloody handkerchief. The man offered his handkerchief, but Our Lady asked for the bloody one.
When the man gave her the bloody one, Mary said: If you had not given it to me, there would have been the end of the world.
Our Lady said that this was the truth. 

Vicka confirmed also in the interview-book:

FATHER JANKO: Did he Virgin respond?
VICKA: She said that it did actually happen more or less as related. And the poor man was her Son, and that the the woman in black was she.
[Janko Bubalo, A Thousand Encounters with the Blessed Virgin Mary in Medjugorje. The Seer Vicka Speaks of Her Experiences, Friends of Medjugorje, Chicago, 1987, p. p. 92]

As mentioned, the story actually is, with few adaptations, an ancient legend that has been circulating in Europe for centuries.
The first reliable attestation is found in the Croniche (“Chronicles") written in the fifteenth century by the Italian Giovanni Sercambi, where a very similar story is told, not about a handkerchief, but about some loaves.
Let us read a passage, translated from the ancient Italian:

While in those areas of England there was a great war [...] Christ, in the guise of a pilgrim, appeared to a farmer intent on working [...] He said to the worker: Go near to the piece of land that you work, and put these breads in the source you'll find there [...] The farmer wanted to put the bread in that spring, but the Virgin Mary, in the guise of an honest woman, approached him [...] She said: Go and tell that man that I, his mother, have not wanted you to put these breads in the spring [...] I want you to know that the man who came to you is Christ, my son, and I am the Virgin Mary, his mother. And I tell you that if I had let you put the bread in the source, the whole world would have been destroyed. 
[Giovanni Sercambi, Le Croniche, vol. II, Giusti, Rome, 1892, pp. 291-293]
Marco Corvaglia
The Bloody Handkerchief
by Marco Corvaglia
In September 1981 it was rumoured through the village that, near Medjugorje, an unidentified driver had been the protagonist of a, by the way, unoriginal story, that was, as noted by Joachim Bouflet in his book Faussaires de Dieu, the repetition of a pious legend common in European folklore for centuries.

The issue concerns us because the locals asked Vicka to ask the Virgin if the fact was true.
Vicka herself, in the well-known interview-book with Father Bubalo, declared it:

VICKA: Someone told us to ask the Virgin if that was the way it was.
[Janko Bubalo, A Thousand Encounters with the Blessed Virgin Mary in Medjugorje. The Seer Vicka Speaks of Her Experiences, Friends of Medjugorje, Chicago, 1987, p. 92]

The story in brief is this: a taxi driver, like Vicka reports, "was returning to Medjugorje when, somewhere in Cerno some poor man stopped the car" [Ibid., p. 91, therefore, the "seer" presents it as a real and concrete fact].
That man was Jesus, who gave the driver a bloody handkerchief and told him to throw it into the river.
Going on, the same taxi driver met the Madonna, who got the man to give her the bloody handkerchief and then told him that if he had instead thrown it into the river, there would have been the end of the world.

Well, according to Vicka, the Madonna confirmed that the fact had actually occurred this way [see also Ogledalo Pravde. Biskupski ordinarijat u Mostaru o navodnim ukazanjima i porukama u Međugorju (The Diocesan Curia of Mostar on the Alleged Apparitions and Messages of Medjugorje), Mostar, 2001, p. 110]


Indeed, let us look at the diary of the "seer" [first book], on 4 September 1981.
Here are the pages related to the issue:


[Transcription: 72. ukazanje. PETAK, 4. 9. '81 god. Danas smo čekali kod Marije Gospu. Ja, Marija, Ivanka i Jakov smo počeli moliti u 6 i 20 min. Došla je Gospa odmah. […] Pitali smo za čovjeka koji je sreo Isusa u putu kada je razvozio narod svojim putem. Sreo je jednog čovjeka svog u krvi i dao mu je taj čovjek a on je bio Isus maramicu krvavu i rekao da je baci u rijeku. Vozeći dulje sreo je jednu ženu a to je bila Blažena Djevica Marija i Ona je molila čovjeka da mu da krvavu maramicu. Čovjek joj je pružio svoju maramicu ali Gospa je tražila krvavu. Kad joj je čovjek davo krvavu Gospa je rekla: Da mi je nisi dao, bio bi strašni sud. Gospa je rekla da je to istina.]
Translation:

72nd apparition. Friday 4. 9. '81.
Today we have waited for the Virgin at Marija’s. Marija, Ivanka, Jakov and I have begun to pray at 6 and 20 minutes. Our Lady has come soon.
We asked about the man who met Jesus on the road while driving some people to their destination. He met a man covered with blood and that man (he was Jesus) gave him the bloody handkerchief and told him to throw it into the river. Going on, he met a woman and she was the Blessed Virgin Mary and she asked the man to give her the bloody handkerchief. The man offered his handkerchief, but Our Lady asked for the bloody one.
When the man gave her the bloody one, Mary said: If you had not given it to me, there would have been the end of the world.
Our Lady said that this was the truth. 

Vicka confirmed also in the interview-book:

FATHER JANKO: Did he Virgin respond?
VICKA: She said that it did actually happen more or less as related. And the poor man was her Son, and that the the woman in black was she.
[Janko Bubalo, A Thousand Encounters with the Blessed Virgin Mary in Medjugorje. The Seer Vicka Speaks of Her Experiences, Friends of Medjugorje, Chicago, 1987, p. p. 92]

As mentioned, the story actually is, with few adaptations, an ancient legend that has been circulating in Europe for centuries.
The first reliable attestation is found in the Croniche (“Chronicles") written in the fifteenth century by the Italian Giovanni Sercambi, where a very similar story is told, not about a handkerchief, but about some loaves.
Let us read a passage, translated from the ancient Italian:

While in those areas of England there was a great war [...] Christ, in the guise of a pilgrim, appeared to a farmer intent on working [...] He said to the worker: Go near to the piece of land that you work, and put these breads in the source you'll find there [...] The farmer wanted to put the bread in that spring, but the Virgin Mary, in the guise of an honest woman, approached him [...] She said: Go and tell that man that I, his mother, have not wanted you to put these breads in the spring [...] I want you to know that the man who came to you is Christ, my son, and I am the Virgin Mary, his mother. And I tell you that if I had let you put the bread in the source, the whole world would have been destroyed. 
[Giovanni Sercambi, Le Croniche, vol. II, Giusti, Rome, 1892, pp. 291-293]
Marco Corvaglia


PAT SAYS:

I have never been to Medjugorje and I have no desire to go there.

In fact, I am just back from Split in Croatian and was a two-hour drive from there but had no desire to see it.

For me, places like Medjugorje, Knock, and Fatima are CASINO CATHOLICISM.

The people who make the money out of these places are the Catholic clergy and the hawkers of religious objects.

I feel a little different about Lourdes because of the presence of the sick and those who work with them. But even  Lourdes is a money factory for the clerics and hawkers.

God is everywhere. We are no nearer to him in Medjugorje than we are in Dublin or Belfast.

Mary is NOT a goddess and these places make her. She was the mother of Jesus and a servant of God.

We should not pray TO Mary - but through Mary to God.

The whole Marian movement comes from the dynamic in Catholicism to canonize virginity and women being backroom servants.

At Split airport I met very sincere old ladies who were up at 5 in the morning following priests up mountains.

Those women were wives and mothers back here in Ireland and what makes them good and special is their vocations in and outside of the home - not following priests up mountains.

But like all casinos Casino Catholicism has its "addicts" and basically they are very often uncurable because they like the drugs given out to them by their "dealer" priests. 

Even Pope Francis has a big problem with Medjugorje. 






Whoever can give them illusions easily masters them."
Gustave Le Bon, Psychology of Crowds (1895)

98 comments:

  1. Just a correction Pat - the church has determined the apparitions are not the real thing so while Medjugorje is undoubtedly a casino it isn't casino Catholicism.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Who's making the money out of It?

      Delete
    2. The church has not yet made a determination

      Delete
    3. The church has made a determination in the shape of the local bishop's statement this year.

      Delete
    4. Yes the seers and their family members are building LARGE homes and 4 star hotels.

      Delete
    5. Like Christina Gallagher and her shower of charlatans.

      Delete
    6. Vatican viewpoint Pat, you're not very good at research or maybe you just don't want truth. Archbishop Hoser began the conference with a prepared message.
      The Papal Envoy first spoke of the comparison of Lourdes with Medjugorje saying that Lourdes, after 150 years, has about 6 million visitors a year and Medjugorje has 2.5 million visitors after just 36 years.
      “It is important to grow Medjugorje. People discover something extraordinary at Medjugorje There is an atmosphere of peace and reconciliation. An atmosphere of peace of the heart – an inter peace of the heart. At Medjugorje there is a huge space for spirituality. People rediscover something sacred, something holy There is something divine when we honor Our Lady.
      “Our Lady is always showing us back to Christ. When we look closely at Medjugorje we see at the center is the Holy Eucharist. We see Adoration where the real presence of Jesus Christ is found. People at Medjugorje discover the Holy Rosary. People at Mejdugorje pray the ‘Way of the Cross” and experience the passion of Jesus Christ. Of course the Holy confession and reconciliation with God is also at the center. ‘
      Archbishop Hoser made an interesting point about the commercialization of Medjugorje. He said that Lourdes, outside of Paris, has the most hotels in France, so it would be natural for Medjugorje to have many shops and hotels. He said Medjugorje will continue to grow.
      The Papal Envoy then spoke of the fruits of Medjugorje.
      “Medjugorje transforms people. In many countries individual confessions do not exist. No adoration of the Holy Sacrement, no “Way of the Cross” , no prayer of the rosary. In many countries there is a dryness of sacred space which leads to a crisis of the faith. At Medjugorje people come to the source. The discovery of prayer all takes place with the help of the Virgin Mary.”
      “Medjugorje emphasizes the title of “The Queen of Peace” The Holy Father, Pope Francis has said “we are in a piecemeal third world war. We see this in the cruelness of civil wars . I have lived the genocide in Rwanda. Syria has been destroyed. Syria has the oldest Christian presence in the world. Chemical weapons are now used. There are so many political conflicts, this is the reality of the today’s world. So now to evoke the Queen of Peace, the Mother of God in prayer for peace is important. The specific role of Medjugorje is utterly important .“
      “You can say to the whole world that there is a light with Medjugorje and you can find the light again. We need these spots of light in the world that is going down to darkness. So friends, be carries of this joyful news.

      Delete
  2. Do you think that the friars just took advantage of some very simple people?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No. I don't think the friars took advantage of anyone.

      Delete
    2. It seems like that, doesn't it? Plus the apparitions came down very strongly on one side in the ethnic conflict at the time!
      As a child it is difficult not to do what a priest tells you - my problem is when people then carry that on for 30 years and make a tidy living off it.

      Delete
  3. How spiritually impoverished you are Pat. You are such a learned man!! Commenting on places you've never visited. You are laughable. Making wild assertions to suit your bigoted, hateful anti Catholic agenda. I've been to all pilgrimage places you despise and like thiusands of others have been deeply enriched in my faith, prayer and spirituality. When visiting such places you can ignore the commercialism but in essence these places are sacred. Tough on you Pat - if you don't like them. Don't condemn and judge others for finding much comfort and solace on their pikgrimages. They certainly offer more than the hayshed at Larne ever would! Anyway, who really cares what you think....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually the Church has given a level of recognition to it now. Do your homework.

      Delete
    2. Pope Francis never visited there either and does not believe in it.

      Jesus was born in a "hayshed - so haysheds are places God visits!!!

      Delete
    3. I think people encounter God everyday. The birth of a child, the death of a spouse, the kindness of strangers. It doesn't have to be dramatic.

      Delete
    4. And the pope passed by very close on a visit to the area and pointedly didn't go to Medjugorje. The place is no more sacred than the barn at Larne!

      Delete
    5. Thank you for that, poster 00.12.
      I can't believe the stance taken on the blog today, even the Mother of our Saviour is fair game for our "learned" attacks.

      Delete
    6. The Mother of the Saviour is being used to make money!

      Delete
    7. Not with me, she is not.... but my devotion to the Rosary is one of the most important things in my daily life. That is what I hope to take to eternity...

      Delete
    8. I'm appalled that you would personally attack Pat after he outlines what the scholars say. Who are we including Pat to say the scholars are wrong. Do you really want people to think Jesus was going to destroy the world over a hanky because the Medjugorje vision said so? The reality is that since the early 80s each visionary is simply looking into space and there are no group visions any more. It is not hard to fake that. And why do the visionaries especially Ivan look cold and bland when they are seeing Mary? They are not even in ecstasy!! You are the bigot.

      Delete
  4. Pat, live and let live. Please let go of the bitterness and allow healing into your life. If people find peace in a particular place then don't deny them that peace and ridicule and insult them with your snide remarks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. People find peace in all kinds of places - alcohol, drugs etc.

      Delete
    2. Again Pat, what is with the insults and attacks. People do not find peace in alcohol and drugs. The very fact that you are comparing medje to drink and drugs says more about you. You can apply the same logic to the clericalism that you live everyday. Please publish all comments instead of editing your responses. Accept the truth.

      Delete
    3. A very silly reply Pat. Of course people find solace in all kinds of things and places but to put that in the context of sacred places is utterly unintelligible and insulting. Would you ever go and do something useful and worthwhile for humanity instead of finding fault with everyone except yourself. You are tiresome and tedious and digging deeper holes..Who are you to make judgments and to attribute sinister motives to pilgrims and their leaders?

      Delete
    4. May God bless you, poster 9.37.
      Thank you.

      Delete
    5. Pat, I must agree with 09.37 - I am certain that you meant to say 'people SEARCH for peace in all kinds of places - alcohol, drugs etc' - at least I hope you did. Whatever it is that they get I would think that the very last thing that someone finds in drug and alcohol dependency is peace?

      Delete
    6. There is also dependency on false religion too!

      Delete
  5. You should speak to Fr Francis Ferry in Raphoe about Megaforgery. He will beat you into believe in it or kill you trying.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ah you sound like an ex seminarian who got a beating!

      Delete
    2. Nice attitude. Perhaps the church should take some action about priests promoting fake visions.

      Delete
    3. Agreed. If the Pope does not support Medjugorje then a priest actively promoting it should be silenced.

      Delete
    4. Ferry is but one of many priests who promote Medjugorje. It's a church-wide thing that many seem to buy into. I suppose that if this is what they want to do for their holidays is that such a bad thing?

      Delete
  6. People have always had a hankering for magic type religion. Is it the Adam and Eve phenomenon. If I can only touch the apple. Miracles can and do happen but we need to look to Jesus to see this is at work. Prayers are answered. The other day a woman had her car stolen from outside church. We prayed she would get it back. Within an hour the car was back at her house. A drug addict had taken it. Miracle coincidence chance who knows but God must have been in there somewhere

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Prayer is my lifeline, but faith and respect is part of it too. We must let go of our arrogance though.

      Delete
  7. 8.29 I'm afraid there is no peace in alcohol or drugs just a temporary scary shelter. Even approved drugs have to be monitored by an appropriate Doctor.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I've been to all these pilgrimage places as a spiritual leader with groups if 35/40/50. I would never be so spiritually arrogant to define any person's spiritual searching in so dismissive and offensive a way as you have done. There are hawkers everywhere. To describe priests in your words is despicable, ignorant and utterly unchristian. Don't see much of Christ in you these days. Mary, Mother of Jesus, protect you. Ad Jesum per Maria.....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Of course that should be "Ad Jesum per Mariam" - "Mariam" being in the accusative case.

      Sorry for the typo.

      Delete
    2. 10.58: Thank you for your gentle correction....

      Delete
  9. Why do priests go to Lourdes to drink the bit out ?
    Is it because they dare not drink at home in a bar with most normal people ?
    As anaul biddy I was shocked to see a rev Fr jiving at 100 mile an hour all excited about nothing, I think someone then removed him to his bed.
    Yes it was an eye opener going to Lourdes.
    Yes I love to jive too and mostly it costs me money, but yes it's big business for most hotels here.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Glad you were there at Lourdes.. I hope you continued to keep an eagle eye that people didn't overdo their enjoyment of evening recreation time....and that all jiving movements were restricted back to your acceptable levels.. Hope you, yourself didn't sit up too late when your monitoring duties were over...

      Delete
    2. 10.10 Fr Ted had much truth under the surface

      Delete
    3. 11.55
      I'm out socialising regularly , but never overdo the alcohol.
      It can make real eegits out of those holy joes.
      Been to Medjugorie twice.
      What's with a priest praying over pilgrims and they falling backwards
      Yes someone was on hand to help them down or up
      Another phenomenon associated with that place.
      No I didn't join in.just watched.

      Delete
  10. Bishop Ratko Perić, of the Mostar-Duvno diocese where Medjugorje is located, is restating what he and his predecessor have always said — Our Lady has never appeared at Medjugorje.
    https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/medjugorje-bishop-alleged-apparitions-are-not-credible
    And if you want the report in the vernacular:
    http://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/svijet/ostra-poruka-iz-hercegovine-mostarski-biskup-okomio-se-na-navodna-ukazanja-gospe-moze-se-mirno-ustvrditi-gospa-se-u-medugorju-nije-ukazala-nikad/5693447/
    It is for the local bishop to investigate alleged apparitions and so on, so the case is over. Medjugorje is not the real thing.

    ReplyDelete
  11. MOSTAR, Bosnia-Herzegovina. Bishop Ratko Perić, of the Mostar-Duvno diocese where Medjugorje is located, is restating what he and his predecessor have always said — Our Lady has never appeared at Medjugorje.

    In 1981, it was alleged that Our Lady appeared to six children. Since then millions of people have come to the town, alleging miracles and even a spinning sun.

    The successive bishops of the diocese where Medjugorje is located, however, have investigated both the alleged seers and the apparitions, finding no merit to the accounts.

    In 1982, Bp. Pavao Žanić, then the bishop of Mostar-Duvno, established a commission to investigate the events. By 1985, Žanić concludedthe investigation, stating that "the apparitions of the Madonna in Medjugorje are not a reality."

    He further noted, "However, several times through letters, the Bishop's Office expressed its desire, and even demanded, that the propaganda stop because of the disobedience of the pastoral personnel and the 'visionaries.' This was a futile attempt."

    The position of the chancery of this diocese has been clear and decisive: There are no credible apparitions of the Virgin Mary.Tweet

    On February 27,  Žanić's successor, Bp. Ratko Perić, re-asserted the previous findings, declaring, "Considering everything that this diocesan chancery has so far researched and studied, including the first seven days of alleged apparitions, we can say: There have been no apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje."

    He further clarifies, "The position of the chancery of this diocese has been clear and decisive: There are no credible apparitions of the Virgin Mary."

    Speaking of the 1983 investigation, Perić notes, "Once we transcribed audio tapes containing conversations between pastoral staff in the parish of Medjugorje in the first week with the boys and girls who claimed that they had seen [the] Virgin Mary. ... [W]e can say with certainty that alleged apparitions are not credible."

    He further outlines just a few of the contradictions and trivialities involved with the "apparitions":

    She often does not speak first, she has a strange laugh, she disappears after certain questions and then returns; she obeys the "visionaries" and priests to come down from the hill to the church, although reluctantly. She is not sure how much time she will be visible, allows some of the visionaries to stand on her veil which is on the ground, allows others to touch her clothes and body.

    For a third time Perić notes, "This really is not Our Lady from the Gospel."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 'This really is not Our Lady from the Gospel.'? Given that the Gospel gives, at very best, no more than a 'thumbnail' sketch of Mary, Perić's dismissive statement is not only unscholarly, but deeply prejudicial.

      If Perić has other autobiographical (or even biographical) information on Mary that would justify such a statement, then he should produce it, or withdraw the statement and apologise for any offence caused.

      Delete
    2. MC, I think Bishop Peric was saying that the Mary of the gospels did not act like a hysteric, appearing and disappearing, laughing hysterically and generally behaving like a "dumb blonde.

      She was very grounded, very contemplative and always very practical.

      Delete
    3. I take your point, Bishop P. . But Perić's statement is based not on certain knowledge of Mary, but on personal and preferred assumptions about her, and about how he expects her to behave. In other words, his statement is based on nothing more solid than personal taste. It is this to which I object. It is neither scholarly nor sceintific, but highly impressionistic (and, quite possibly, entirely subjective and unreliable)

      I do not know whether Mary has been appearing at Medjugorje for such an unprecedented length of time; but I do know that of those messages I've read and studied (and I have read and studied many of them) there is nothing in them whatever that in any way contradicts the deposit of faith. Nothing at all.

      Delete
    4. Thats a fair point magna, but you have to argue that the messages are so broad that they do not add to the deposit of faith also. What do you think?

      Delete
    5. @19:42 Magna doesn't think - he doesn't understand the phrase 'deposit of faith '.

      Delete
    6. 19:42, that's correct; they don't add to the deposit of faith. And, yes, they are rather broad. But these features are characteristic of Marian apparition, unless a specific request is made of an individual by Mary, for example, her wish that the parish priest of Lourdes have a church built on the apparition site.

      Were the Medjugorje messages adding to the deposit of faith, then I should immediately doubt their authenticity, since they would call into question the authority of the Church to teach and preach. They would cause rancour and division rather than unite Catholics around that deposit.

      The messages encourage us to embrace our faith more fervently, and live it more deeply. This, to me, is an important proof of their authenticity.

      Delete
    7. 20:23, you still smarting from our previous encounter?

      Delete
    8. No Maggie dear, splitting my sides at someone who claims to be so learned 'studying' Medjugorje and *still*not getting it.

      Delete
    9. Okay. Enlighten me. What does 'deposit of faith' mean?

      Delete
    10. The woman in the apparitions can't be Our Lady because she says the Our Father with the seers including "forgive us our sins," yet is without sin. Our Lady did not say the Our Father but only the Glory be, in Lourdes. This is not the immaculate Mother of God.

      Delete
    11. Thank you for admitting you don't know what the deposit of faith is. Although your understanding seems to have progressed a little since you claimed a public revelation (which you called a private one) confirmed something in the deposit of faith. Doh!
      Magna, at no point am I going to enlighten you because you are always claiming to know everything and calling everyone else idiots. For a man who claims multiple degrees to be so lacking in a critical facility to be taken in by this fraud suggests...you lack any critical faculty at all.
      Now please make my day by telling me you've been on numerous pilgrimages to Medjugorje and paid your hotel bill in cash.

      Delete
    12. 09:32, shouldn't you be out in the farmyard with the rest of the ch...ch...CHICKENS!😅

      Delete
    13. 00:06, Jesus said those words, too, ('forgive us our trespasses') when he recited the Lords Prayer for his disciples.

      Perhaps he wasn't God, then.

      Delete
    14. No Maggie. And I'm not rising to your usual bluster and bullying. What was it you got thrown out of seminary for again?

      Delete
    15. Baaaa baaaa, Maggie

      Delete
  12. Why are so many priests leading people to a site the Church has decided in NOT FOR REAL?

    Why did Dickie McKeown allow Eugene Boland minister there when he does not minister in Derry and is c/o bishop's house???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What business is it of yours Pat who leads a pilgrimage to Medugorje? Go and attend to more worthwhile activities. Dig your garden, take your dog for a walk, spend time with your partner....but spare us your inquisition about Catholic devotions and beliefs which you abandoned years ago. Go back to you nuns in Split!!

      Delete
  13. You have to get it into your head,Pat
    Eugene DECIDED to stop parish work , not the bishop

    ReplyDelete
  14. Pat, dissolve this poisonous blog and get back to prayer and service to the poor. Maybe read St Bernard of Clairvuex who would guide you better than the filth you bathe in daily

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You obviously don't like the idea of the corrupt hierarchy and clergy coming under scrutiny?

      Delete
  15. Knock is just as bad. A bunch of kids played with a magic lantern and conned their families. The local PP spotted the economic benefits for everyone, and cashed in. Total rot.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 14.30. Total rot more describes the state of your mind than the beautiful shrine of Knock where thousands find immense inner peace, comfort and healing. It's a place of prayer, nourishment and peace. Thank God for Knock.

      Delete
    2. @15.33

      You will be thrice blessed.

      Delete
    3. @14,30
      Woe to you, I fear...

      Delete
  16. Saw one of the "visionaries" interviewed on a chat show once. She struck me as definitely not the full shilling. She had a perpetually vacant look and a very worrying fixed grin.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Was it Vicka Ivankovic-Mijatovic? From your description of the person, I suspect it was.

      Yes, her appearance could produce this reaction; I'll give you that. It certainly did in me.

      But it is merely an appearance; nothing more.

      Delete
    2. @14,38
      What an inane comment! I hope the lady learns how to fix and adjust her face to meet your requirements. Are you for real!!

      Delete
  17. Once again Pat you are reactionary and ill informed. St Bernard of Clairvuex was a champion of reform and defended against corruption in the Church, even european monarchs and tiara wearing Popes to give up on coveting Spanish gold for the saving of Souls. Like always Pat you find yourself always needing to be right, though you do not realise that you are just a sinful pawn in the 'Old Women' priestly fraternity. You are only being used as a billboard.
    I offer you this challenge. Close down your blog and see if the world stops turning!?

    ReplyDelete
  18. Have people watched the video at the beginning of today's Blog?

    Do you not find it worrying?

    After being a visionary at Lourdes Bernadette spent the rest of her life in a French convent - no big houses, no 4 star hotels, no million pound homes in the USA.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I never believed in Medjugorje but recently a friend gave me Mirjana's book My Heart Will Triumph. I have to say I found her very impressive.She seems like a very good sane person. I found it hard to put the book down but yet I am not fully convinced as there are some things that are a bit strange. Still it would be hard for six people to keep this up for 36 years but maybe harder to admit the truth at this stage . I would love for it all to be true as so many people have been blessed there.

      Delete
    2. Ruth Burrows OCD is a recognised mystic.. She is incredibly down to earth and says her life is very boring. She lives in an enclosed convent.

      Delete
    3. 15:49, could you elaborate a little? Are you suggesting that the lifestyles of the Medjugorje visionaries should be the same as Ruth Burrows'?

      Delete
    4. 15.49 - What's the relevance of your comment? Rather vacuous and meaningless!

      Delete
    5. I have always believed that the Carmelites (OCD) are the experts on mysticism in the church. They have the great Carmelite doctors of St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila. A vision according to the Carmelites is a moment of intellectual clarity. I have read most of the Carmelite works. This doesn't sound anything like the Carmelite mystics. Ruth Burrows is a Carmelite nun. They have studied the phenomena for hundreds of years.

      Delete
    6. Pat, you can show videos like the one above till kingdom come. Any business which only takes cash should be seen at once as dodgy, for example. But people will happily suspend disbelief.

      Delete
    7. Taking cash is "dodgy" you think? But not half as dodgy as receiving fake cheques from all over the world from 'banks' that don't even exist!

      Delete
  19. Yes, on face of it, the video is indeed cause for legitimate concern.

    On face of it, have the visionaries been corrupted by the lure of international celebrity and its financial trappings? These are concerns that should (indeed must) be further investigated.

    As for Bernadette Soubirous, she entered the convent at Nevers BY CHOICE.

    Apparently, the Medjugorje visionaries were invited by Mary to enter religious life...but only if they so chose.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If anyone else talked like this you'd call them elderly fools. You're like a sheep! Baaa baaaa

      Delete
    2. What, specifically, is your objection to my comment? I'll happily address it.

      Delete
  20. So what's your point, dearest Patsy?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Pat can we get back to the scandal in Dioceses please. The info the people want to hear and know. Lets leave these Church fantasys pilgramages to others. Can u tell us more about issues in Westminister. Shrewsbury would be one to look into. Forget about Dublin. Their all pussies and cowards in Dublin.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Happy Harry: you deplorable, empty headed moron. Your staple diet is gossip and more gossip. How miserable your life must be! Priests are sensible not to forward info to you and your lazy, trouble making wimps!

    ReplyDelete
  23. Happy Harry: you illiterate! "Fantasies" not "fantasys" - "they are" not "their". Go back to school.

    ReplyDelete
  24. This blog's tickled me today, the sight of Pat Buckley defending Catholic orthodoxy from a bunch of ill-catechised people who I would call raccolta Catholics but the raccolta was at least church-authorised which Medjugorje is not.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Pat, I think it may be of benefit to you and some of your nasty bloggers if you read Pope Francis's Angelus Message yesterday. Very apt, thought provoking and challenging words for all Christians. It's a timely, gospel inspired message on "forgiveness". I find it to be a worthwhile message to reflect upon. Perhaps you might be inspired and walk a new pathway of "true renewal". You'll find many genuine pilgrims on this pathway, including priests and bishops, good and bad.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Systematic corruption does not need forgiveness.

      It needs to be challenged.

      Delete
    2. Pat, you are full of self righteous sound bytes. Read Pope Francis in full and not just selectively - that's of course if you believe he is the true successor of Peter. You sometimes behave as if you are. You are a master at evasion of truthful answers.

      Delete
  26. 21.23
    What's with all the reprimanding of Pat today.
    If you want to better your life, do so
    And leave Pat to manage his own life

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And is Pat leaving others to manage their own lives or is he constantly commenting on how they do so?

      Delete
  27. 21.23 - Pat needs sound advice and wise counselling and no better person than Pope Francis to imitate in his kindness and mercy of heart to people. He is someone who truly follows and imitates Christ. Pope Francis is a TRUE SHEPHERD. Pat is in need of our prayers - always.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. +Pat is a better shepherd than any member of the Irish bishops council. At least he identifies problems and faces them. Look at the Martins who do nothing? Waterford with his false piety refusing believers communion, mcAreavy hiding from the camera's shadow, down on your luck with Conor, John buckley out talking hurling letting deenihan run the shop. Boyce with his broom sweeping things under the carpet. From to to bottom in this country the church is rot. Pat is honest, compassionate, pastoral, supportive of the downtrodden. Pat remembers that he is a priest.

      Delete