Sunday, 28 January 2018

GAY CLERGY - THE BIGGER PICTURE?




IT IS QUITE APPARENT, EVEN FROM THIS WEEK'S BLOGS, THAT THE CATHOLIC PRIESTHOOD AND EPISCOPATE IS PREDOMINANTLY HOMOSEXUAL AND THAT MANY OF THESE MEN HAVE, BEEN, OR ARE, SEXUALLY ACTIVE.

Personally, I am building up a large database of who these men are, who they have been, who they have been "with", where they have been and what they know and are covering up.

Apart from the individuals themselves, there is the bigger question of the HOMOSEXUALISATION OF THE CATHOLIC PRIESTHOOD - and whether or not that is a good thing?

The majority of Church members are heterosexual and it seems to me that the hierarchy and clergy should be representative of the Church in general and that therefore the hierarchy and priesthood should mostly consist of heterosexual men and women.

There is no problem with a bishop or priest being homosexual - but should not the bishop and priest be expected to abide by the same moral code that the Church requires of all its members?

Would it not be a nonsense for the Church to demand that heterosexual bishops and priests should be celibate and chaste but homosexual bishops and priests do not have to be celibate and chaste?


And this begs another question. Why is it that the majority medics, lawyers, police officers, carpenters, plumbers etc are heterosexual but the majority of bishops and priests are homosexual?

Is there something different about the priesthood that makes the majority homosexual?


There has been a huge drop in priestly vocations in recent decades. What are the causes of this:

1. Increased materialism and secularisation leading to faith and spirituality been less important?

2. All the abuse and scandals in the Catholic Church causing people to regard the Church as a place of corruption and scandal?

3. Obligatory celibacy putting off people who might like to be priests but might also like to be married and have children?


And why are homosexual men being attracted to the priesthood and heterosexual men not?

1. The priesthood being a good place to hide your homosexuality but still enjoy it?

2. The priesthood affording one prestige and importance when many gay people, even in today's society feel, or are made to fell, like second-class citizens?

3. The priesthood not requiring the same rigorous academic abilities as it used to or as other professions do?

4. The priesthood being a place where you are SEEN to be holy while not feeling so holy by your secret lifestyle - a kind of spiritual schizophrenia?





DYSFUNCTIONALITY:

For so many reasons the Catholic Church is a dysfunctional Church and its episcopate and priesthood is a dysfunctional profession.

The church of Jesus' time was very simple because it was very informal and had little structure.

The Church during various centuries was dysfunctional with its crusades, it's empire making and breaking, it's inquisitions, it's counter reformations etc.

But in these days, as the Church loses it's political clout all over the world it's dysfunctionality deems to have turned inwards and is imploding.

And it seems to be happening with things to do with sexuality - homosexuality, same sex marriage, contraception, abortion etc.

Some time ago someone said:

"SEX WILL BE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S TWENTIETH CENTURY GALILEO".

I wonder if we are witnessing that happening?




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180 comments:

  1. Building a computerised database will be very useful for organising and keeping all the information together for reference or analysis.

    However, I don't think the homosexualisation of the priesthood is a recent development in the Catholic Church. Remember Keith O'Brien admitted he'd been at it by default all his adult life.

    It may just be a case of people of the same sort or with the same tastes and interests will be found together.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Pat I hope you have superfast broadband and missive servers in Larne to cope with that database. Achonry diocese alone would need a few gigabytes and don't get me started on Killaloe.

      Delete
    2. I'm 1205. My info might be slightly out of date but it's based on my experiences in the failed Western Theological Institute in Galway. Nail Ahern the hated Middle Dean of Maynooth used to opine that seminaries shouldn't be hothouses for the pious. Please be reassured that the Western Theological Institute was an extremely HOT house.

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    3. Clogher PP (Fermanagh)28 January 2018 at 13:55

      My co-diocesan Canon Pat McHugh was in charge there and he wouldn't have put up with any nonsense. He stamped down firmly on strange goings-on when he was Director of Formation at Wonersh. Obviously he didn't eradicate the goings-on completely, but who could, especially at Wonersh. He has great anecdotes from there, thoughm

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    4. To be fair to Achonry it's priest/layman rather than priest/priest. I think that's better, morally but we have to deal with pastoral realities and meet people where they are.

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    5. Niall wasn’t the worst of them. He was young. He’d make a good job of it today with his wisdom. He has mellowed and is a fine priest and human being.

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    6. Too late now. He wrecked many in Maynooth.

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    7. 07:09 It’s never too late or to early to start again and change direction.

      Delete
  2. Freudian slip here: "The majority of Church members are heterosexual and it seems to me that the hierarchy and clergy should be representative of the Church in general and that therefore the hierarchy and priesthood should mostly consist of homosexual men and women."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I see what you mean when you say "Freudian slip" but perhaps it's not a slip at all!
      In other words, the poster may be indicating his/her viewpoint that the clergy, if it be truly representative, should be a mixture of both men and women.

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    2. Women can't be priests. End of. They can go to the CoE if they want that.

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    3. I once asked a Mercy nun, who was in favour of lady priests, if I as as a man could join the convent as a postulant, in the interests of the equal opportunities she advocated. She was raging.

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    4. 12.15
      And what about the women who were ordained during the Cold War in Czechoslovakia, so that prisoners etc. could partake of Holy Communion? A chapter well known to many but a story waiting to be bruited.

      Delete
    5. 12.15 you are not comparing like with like. Religious life contains both lay and ordained members. Theoretically it would only require a decision of the Mercy leadership to signal their wish that males would be admitted to full membership. There are religious institutes which contain men and women. The Dutch province of the Carmelites admitted women within the past 50 years.

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    6. So will the unMercy admit any men soon? Might bring the average age down. Not many new entrants following their post-Vatican II renewal.

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    7. The Dutch province of the Carmelites have no members under the age of 70. Like the rest of the Dutch church they are kaput.

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    8. Some misunderstanding -- I posted the quote at the top of this thread from what Pat originally posted -- now corrected. Nothing to do with women priests but with the slip of "homosexual" where "heterosexual" was clearly meant (fourth last word).

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  3. Pat, please read through your article and make the necessary corrections. It has several references to homosexual clergy where it should say heterosexual. It's quite confusing. There's nothing worse than grammatical errors which confuses the reader and alters the meaning of the article.

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    Replies
    1. I hope +Pat's input into the database is more accurate. LOL.

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    2. The idea of a database should send a chill down every spine.

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  4. Redemptorists in the Dublin province are not sexually active. I am tired of the suggestions about confreres on this website.

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    1. Well one of the Limerick Reds is on fabguys, but it's ok as there are no rude photos and he says he's just looking for friends. No harm in that and we all need them.

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    2. I was recently s****** by a Red in a sauna. I am still sore.

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    3. If you are in Mount St Phonsie in Limerick open fabguys and you'll see your confrere as bold as brass.

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    4. What is that Red seeking friends on Fabguys? Why not Ireland's Own?

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    5. @08:20 What about Xtube's MyDirtySecret? Have you check that for any errant confrères.

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    6. Redemptorist at 8:20am - are you in the hermit section of the Reds? Or living ona different planet?

      The Reds should be renamed the Pinks for crying out loud. A senior Redemptorist was heard to say a few years ago - “the gays have taken over the Order”.

      And you can be assured, 08:20, not a few of the Pinks are most definitely sexually active.

      Delete
    7. I agree 100%. Total Grindrs, the CSSPs. All secret of course but the gay world is surprisingly small and we exchange notes. The Redemporists are renowned/infamous/celebrated on the scene and they definitely enrich it. Could do with a few younger congreres.

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    8. I am shocked and in indisbelief about the allegations about the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer and Mount Saint Alphonsus, Limerick. If such allegations are true, please write to Rev. Fr. Seamus Enright, Mount Saint Alphonsus, South Circular Road,Limerick.

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    9. @1838 you must be joking!!!!!

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    10. Redemptorist in Limerick RELAX. The Spotlight team checked Xtube and fabguys nothing there guys. Which sauna or was it a bath house in LA?

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    11. @16:19 - it’s CSsR (not CSSP - that’s a different crowd altogether). And the younger “congreres” (sic) must hide when they see you.

      @18:38 - ROFL

      Delete
    12. Limerick is a distraction. What about that Red travelling to Dublin from Belfast for fun? Seen him in the Front Lounge with other clerical friends and he might be the one who left @12.10 sore in the sauna. He's a boyo with a tool!

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    13. I had great sessions with Red student who used to go to classic cinema rocky horror picture show on friday nights in haroldscross. Saw him preaching last summer

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    14. Very defensive.

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    15. 21:39 - Could we be talking “Dishy D” here?

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    16. 20:50, that fairly narrows it down as most of the Belfast Reds are decrepit and probably beyond giving anyone a sore anything.

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    17. 20:50 who is the Red travelling from Belfast to Dublin for action? I wouldn't mind seeing his big tool.

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    18. Intelligence. Not D he's on another mission learning Chickewa

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    19. Too close for comfort! Southern Comfort

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    20. @20.50 please send your concerns to
      The Rectum, Clonard Monastery

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    21. I've "experienced" the Belfast Red in Dublin. He must be never off the Enterprise. How does he explain away his Dublin trips? There are only so many times that you can you are going to Veritas, or Wynn's Hotel, whose carvery is much favoured by religious up from the country for the day.

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    22. D would be a great asset as a vications director.

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    23. responding to comments raised by poster at 2050 hours

      1. What do imply as fun? A few drinks in a public house with clerical friends is not a breach of vows.
      2. Did you see this Redemptorist in a gay sauna? It certainly seems highly circumstantial from your posting. This is callous, unfair and unchristian.
      3. Is/was the Redemptorist a student when you observed him with clerical friends?
      4. Is he a Redemptorist priest in Clonard?

      Delete
  5. After all the shouting about bitches and fashions and clergy politics I think we are finally getting to the heart of the matter. The root causes and how we should address them in practical terms. Scandal makes news but action makes change

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  6. You said

    The majority of Church members are heterosexual and it seems to me that the hierarchy and clergy should be representative of the Church in general and that therefore the hierarchy and priesthood should mostly consist of homosexual men and women.

    What about heterosexual men?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I imagine it should read “heterosexual”.

      Some of the priests with the Ordinariate of Walsingham are former COE vicars who are married. I don’t know if they’re required to be celibate.

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    2. They are not required to be celibate.

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    3. It's bizarre that in the Latin Rite you have married clergy, with their wife and family occupying presbyteries, converts who only crossed the Tiber when women vicar were allowed (they would have stayed in that old queen the CoE if the synod vote had gone the other way). Yet born and bred Catholic men are required to be celibate priests. One rule for the Prods another rule for the Taigs.

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    4. 12.06 There is a former Anglican Priest with family in our RC parish. Not a bother. I did email him once to compare notes. He never got back to me.

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    5. That was rude of him. In my experience Anglican clergy are friendly and charming, so hopefully a one-off.

      Delete
  7. Reading here these past few days raises many questions of a moral and ethical nature. Moral - that the behaviour of some clerics is unacceptable in their sexual exploits and should be challenged. Ethical - I have grave concerns about a vendetta that seeks to depend on gossip, jealousies, innuendo, priests playing against each other. Truth gets lost in a tabloid, gutter aproach to defining moral parameters. The hugh moral ground taken by many is laughable and derisory. The threat of outing others is a trampling on their rights. The preoccupation by Pat and his band on the moral failings of others and his threat to hang them high raises serious questionss about his moral state. Who has authorised him to go on this moral crusade? we all deserve truth but what you offer is vengance, judgment and cobdembation. I wonder if today's gospel will impact on you Pat? Jesus spoke with an authority - but an authority that made a difference for the well being, good abd betterment of people's lives. Yes, he spoke the truth but with mercy and justice. I don't believe that you and I Pat follow the same Christ. I prefer the gentler, affirming, compassionate, just voice of Christ and which I try to emulate. It works more powerfully than a bitchy, tabloid mindset. Try it.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. No. What you are doing is lookibg away and not facing the problem.

      Just because I have not published names etc does not mean I do not have them.

      Jesus never closed his eyes to wrong!

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    2. Pat at 10.31. No, I don't look away. I challenge by the integrity of my own commitment to gospel mercy, justice, compasdion and compasdion. Not an easy thi g to do. I certai ly do not throw people under the bus with glee, delight, self satisfaction or self righteousness. Your agenda Pat is transparent: beat the priests and Catholic Church into the ground. You embellish stories, you never verify any story except through hearsay and innuendo. I have my fert firmly planted on the ground. Jezus saw the wrongs but didn't thras people into the ground. He spoke the truth but always said " go and sin no more". He gave people the opportunity of new beginnings but didn't smash their dignity into pieces. Your threatening language is a wirld away from that of the gospel of which you will speak today....Remember the person in the gospel story throwing stones is you and me...Christ said "let he/she without sin throw the first stone..". I always look at people with human and moral failings with the eyes of Christ. That approach is the one that yields better fruits..I still contend you, Pat, are morally repugnant in your aporoach to others.

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    3. And you are wilfully blind.

      Just like the thousands of priests who knew their colleagues were abusing children and said nothing for the "good of the Church", for fear of causing scandal or to be the forgiving Christ to the abusers.

      You and they are not the woman caught in adultery.

      You are the silent ones who slinked away!

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    4. I think you are a priest.

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    5. Pat 11.02: In response to my 10.53 comment, written in a great hurry, I did not fail ever in my duty to report abuse when I saw it. And I have done so on a number of occasions. I follow all procedures. That's a truth I can live with. Nor am I wilfully blind. I just try to imitate the Christ of the gospel. I find it works best when trying to convince others of their wrongs! Throwing stones is always counterproductive. You berate all clerics dishonestly, unjustly and wrongfully. Take the blinkers from your eyes and search your own soul and heart. You must think we're all as un-Christlike as you!!!

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  8. "And why are homosexual men being attracted to the priesthood and heterosexual men not?"

    Whatever the reason, I think the priesthood has always attracted more gay than straight men. It has just become more obvious now by the almost total lack of straight men.

    Also, I should imagine most of the older generation of bishops and priests are predominantly gay too.

    ReplyDelete
  9. You seem to want the Church to fail and sadly it will Never however we have bad apples in it sadly and with peoples help the Church will remove them Bishops' and Priests it is the Church law Pope Francis can and has removed Mitres.

    Sadly Ireland was badly led with some of the current Archbishops and Bishops but more so by Charlie Brown but now it is a new beginning.

    Five new bishops will be appointed to Ireland this year so please even if you hate the Church which seems many blog writers do I beg you to please contact him before these appointments are made soon maybe another one this week.

    Most Reverend Juke Okolo Apostolic Papal Nuncio 183 Navan Road Dublin 7 or call him + 353 (0) 1 838 0577

    The Church does not want these fake guys ordained and that ones that are is out as quickly as possible.

    sadly for some Pope Francis has said Celibacy is here to stay in the Church.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 10.32 I am a lay person and I certainly don't want the Church to fail. It is essential for the good of mankind. I have done about 40 years voluntary work in the Church but we don't seem to be well served by the people at the top. I have been following Jordan Peterson a clinical psychologist who has done a very good bible series on YouTube. He reckons the Catholic church is essential to hold the rest of civilisation together. He is not a Catholic. One of his first rules is don't lie. The Church seems to have forgotten that.

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    2. It has ALWAYS lied. Iscariot? Peter? (Lied, THREE TIMES, under duress: said he didn't know Jesus.πŸ˜†)

      Delete
  10. While many priests of Dublin are gay without a doubt only a small few of them are sexually active. These tend to be individuals who are heavy drinkers and/or take other mood altering substances. Surprisingly there have been very few incidents bringing scandal to the door. There was the infamous case of one older man who died of a heart attack in a gay sauna. In more recent times there was the case of a newly ordained who fancied a bit of rough only to have the gay-for-pay turn on him and threaten him severely - he is now departed from the ministry. There was also the case of the man fromm Rathmines whose nefarious activities with an 'escort' led to blackmail - he is now in a rural parish.
    Apart from these few nothing else has come to light.

    If a priest is gay - so what? But he should live the vow he has taken and abstain from being sexually involved with others. There is also the case of the two Dublin men who own a house together in a fashionable suburb, this is where they live together only spending the occasional night in the presbytery; they however are discreet. It seems DM approves since he has placed them in adjoining parishes a short distance from the love nest.
    At least there is no public scandal.

    Pat, I say live and let live, leave the judgment to God, and stop the witch hunt you have begun.
    You own sexual past doesn't bear scrutiny.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And there are the cases you don't know about?

      This is not a witch hunt. It is an effort to bring an underground problem into the light.

      I have never claimed to be a virgin.

      But when I was under the yoke of Rome I was not messing about.

      I am no longer under that yoke.

      I have never liked gay bars or saunas. 

      I have always preferred intimacy to sex.

      I have published an honest book on my own personal journey that is available on Amazon: A SEXUAL LIFE - A SPIRITUAL LIFE.

      I can and do speak openly and honestly about all aspects of my life.

      I do not live a double life.

      Delete
    2. How much is your book? I'd like to read it.

      Can it be downloaded? (Don't know if there's enough space left on this crummy tablet.)

      Delete
    3. MC, You can buy a used copy for less than £2 and if you are a Kindle subscriber its free.

      It was not written to make money.

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    4. I hope you have made some money from your book. Like everyone else, you have to live.☺

      Delete
    5. Very little. It was a heavy topic.

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    6. Bring truth to light? Speak open and honestly?

      Pat the Grindr account featured on your blog this week was FAKE. It was deliberately set up to defame a seminarian. The images were obviously screenshot from the account owner's device. This was a deliberate attempt to mislead you and to defame an innocent seminarian.

      You have said before that there's a corrupt subculture in the seminaries which seeks to destroy vocations. And you (perhaps not deliberately) are contributing to their success by airing their false allegations.

      The REAL and more damning story is that someone tried to frame a good seminarian, and you have the proof. Who was behind it? Was it your informant? And will you take steps to clear the defamed seminarian's name?

      If you are a man of truth, honesty, and integrity, you'll do the right thing.

      Delete
    7. DM hopefully will be asked to go after the meeting in Ireland or when he is 75 in two years time he will go quick Rome is well aware of a lot.

      These two Preists should be ashamed of themselves as it is a disgrace some homeless people whould be glad for a bed for one night and these guys have 3 houses.

      You if sure of your facts should write to the papal Nuncio after all it is the laity of these parishes who are keeping these FALSE Priests.
      But I would be surprised if DM knows likely all GOSSIP.

      Delete
    8. My Friend,

      I received information and six pictures from a source that has not misled me in the past.

      I immediately sent all I had been given to the seminarian's bishop for investigation.

      I did not name the seminarian, the diocese or the bishop.

      To date the bishop has not come back to me to say that the information was either accurate or false.

      If he does I will publish his words fully and without identifying him.

      We all know some accusations are true and some are fake.

      It is up to that bishop to state that they were fake and that no truth was found in them.

      Do you not agree?

      Delete
    9. You don't need a bishop to tell you that those images were screenshot from the account owner's device. Only the account holder would see the "Edit profile" button. Only the person sending those images on chat would see them on the right hand side. This would mean that the seminarian in question screenshot them himself and then sent them to you. How likely do you think that is?

      This is obviously a set-up! Maybe your informant has given you correct information in the past, but this is obviously false.

      Ask yourself this, your informant is obviously well acquainted with Grindr, he has a lot of information on others, he's obviously part of the homosexual subculture, or is at least close to them, could it be that he's just trying to keep you from looking too closely at him? Is he deflecting attention from himself or someone close to him?

      Pat you have the proof of the real story here, that someone has deliberately set up a fake Grindr in order to destroy another seminarian's vocation. It proves what you've said all along, there's a gay subculture which is determined to destroy real vocations!

      Delete
    10. I will certainly look into what you have said and will question my informant further.

      Delete
    11. “This is not a witch hunt. It is an effort to bring an underground problem into the light.”

      Of course, there is the possibility trying “to bring an underground problem into the light” will only drive it further underground.

      And to ensure it is not viewed as a campaign against the priesthood, I think only those expressing anti-gay views and playing the field at the same time should be exposed.

      Delete
    12. Hallam assistant priest28 January 2018 at 13:45

      Yes, only the account owner would see "edit profile" but I've often screenshot my pics to share with others as I don't like to retain revealing pics on my phone.

      Delete
    13. Why would you screenshot your publicly available profile? Or your chat? It doesn't add up!

      "Hallam assistant priest" you should consider your life choices...It's either celibacy or leave priesthood. Make a choice!

      Delete
    14. Hallam assistant priest you should not be on grindr nor know anything about it.
      Has your PP no duties for you.
      maybe first should be a visit to Bishop Haskett
      Very Concerned a Sunday and you have time on your hands , No Sick Parishioners or Care homes to visit.

      Delete
    15. As I explained, pay attention those at the back, I don't keep exciting photos on my phone in case it's lost or stolen. Instead they remain on password protected Grindr and, as necessary I screenshot from there. And to settle the pearl-clutchers I've never done the deed with a Hallam priest. Only Salford, East Anglia, Menervia and Southwark so far. We were all consenting adults who don't agree with the stupid Roman structures.

      Delete
    16. I was very encouraged by the "Who am I to judge" statement by Pope Francis. It affirmed me in my priestly ministry with all its challenges. Can you please explain why, when God made me, he built into me a preference for men even though I'm a man and love being a man. Did God make mistakes?

      Delete
    17. Hallam assistant priest28 January 2018 at 17:06

      1422 you don't know Grindr obvs lol. The public profile pic is tame, the exciting ones are by request, that's why I screenshot them, they are not saved on Google photos.

      Delete
    18. 16.58 NO God did not make a mistake... you are not who you are or meant to be .

      You should really consider your vocation and leave now and not be another mortgage on us the laity as the new Bishops will NOT tolerate it.

      But why not be who you are a trapped Gay man in the Priesthood time to leave .

      Grindr and other sites are small the Gay community is small but all know each other.

      And if I seen a Priest or Bishop on Grindr you can be assured the Papal Nuncio and Bishop would know within 24 hours.

      Delete
    19. Hallam assistant priest28 January 2018 at 21:20

      I've been reported to the Nuncio in Wimbledon a few times. Guess what happened? Diddlysquat!

      Delete
    20. 16:58, there is NOTHING wrong with you as a human being.

      Delete
    21. 16:58 More power to you. God did not make a mistake. Neither did you.

      18:44’s contribution is the fulmination of someone with the religious sensibility of the stones thrown to kill Stephen.

      Ignore her.

      Delete
    22. Hallam assistant Priest you are a disgrace to the hard working clergy of Hallam Diocese and I think it may have been the previous Papal Nuncio you may have been reported too however it is a new game with the current one so Good Luck.

      it is only time before you leave or asked to leave.

      How you can sleep at night shocks me then look at O'Brien says it all but he came down with thunder like all these closeted clergy will.

      Delete
  11. 10:33 Talk to Gorgeous. He will tell you things about your colleagues that you either do not know or do not want to know. Seminarian.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Which means you must know these things too. So YOU spill the beans.

      Delete
    2. I have passed all the information I have to Diarmuid Martin - anonymously to protect myself from reprisal.

      Nothing has happened to those involved.

      Delete
    3. 12.24 please send it to Papal Nuncio as soon as possible and point out you have already sent it to DM and nothing done.
      The quicker the DM and his assistants go the better for the Church.

      Delete
  12. Perhaps Jesus called as many 'homos' as he could to the priesthood to give them at least an opportunity to lead chaste lives and to avoid eternal damnation.

    Eternal damnation is, after all, the fate of 'homos', isn't it? (Well, it is what that self-repressed other 'homo', Paul the self-styled apostle, teaches.😈

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    1. I would like to apologise to any homos reading this for my intemperate comment above. I'm 'not very well' today and will be going to bed with an Alka Seltzer shortly.

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    2. A few pre-lunch sharpeners was the idea but you know what it's like. Once you start it's hard to stop. Bed, bed, heaven on earth to the weary head. See you all around 02:39.

      Delete
  13. From St John Chrysostom:
    Let no inhumane, cruel, unmerciful, or unclean person come near [to the Altar]. I say these things to communicants, and to you, who administer. For it is necessary to turn my discourse to you also, so that with great care you may distribute these Gifts. Not a small punishment threatens you, if you grant anyone, while aware of his sin, to be a sharer in this table; his blood will be required at your hands. So if someone who is a military leader, or a Prefect, or an Emperor crowned with a diadem, should approach unworthily, forbid him: you have greater power than him. That is why God marked you with this honour, that you might discern such matters. This is your dignity, your safety, this is your entire crown; not that you should go around dressed in a white and shining tunic.

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    1. I know I'm going to regret this, but what is your point, my pseudonymous errant😈 doppleganger?

      Delete
    2. You do know that Johnny Chrysostom was quite mad? He once denied himself rest (refused to sit or lie down for two years) and sleep to the point where he permanently damaged his physical (stomach and kidneys) and mental health.

      If (as Johnny believes) anyone who gives communion to someone he knows is in grave sin will in turn be punished by God, then Jesus is in big trouble...since he gave communion to Iscariot.πŸ˜†

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    3. “When there is an imminent danger for the Faith, prelates must be questioned, even publicly, by their subjects.” Thomas Aquinas (II-II, q.33, a.4).

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    4. Don't see why you would regret it unless you don't want me to point out that Jesus is in a somewhat different position as regards judgement from every (other) priest or bishop who has ever lived.
      I'm no doppelganger btw, I'm the real thing.

      Delete
    5. Prove it. Reveal from which northern diocese you were dismissed from Maynooth and when? I've heard Dromore, 1989.

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    6. TBH I also heard that he was born in Corey, a chain smoker who used to put empty wine bottles outside his room in the ICR and that was considered acceptable. Isn't the St Joseph's Young Priest Society marvellous, though Tom Clancy made a song and dance out of handing over the cheques.

      Delete
    7. Gorey, Co Wexford, diocese of Ferns

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    8. Cos only aul dolls read the Ireland's Own. Excellent publication that it is, the small ads have little appeal for your average red-blooded Red.

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    9. I'm not going to reveal my identity on here, hence my nom de plume. It sounds like you've placed me though - that was a difficult time in my life and I have since done some work on my own...issues. Unfortunafely they still get the better of me occasiinally, as you see on here :o(

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    10. 12:28 (Fake Magna CartaπŸ˜†), you're peddling fake news about Jesus: no, he is not in a different position from us morally; we are to follow his example. Wasn't this a purpose of his incarnation? (Question's rhetorical, by the way.πŸ˜†)

      So, if Jesus can give his Eucharistic body to someone he knew was in grave sin, then who are we to do otherwise? After all, he did give his finite body up for death, not for the righteous, but for sinners.πŸ˜†

      (God, I'm in awe of myself!πŸ˜†)

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    11. And wrong in every other way as well.

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    12. 12:57, who you tryin' to kid?πŸ˜• I once saw an advert in Ireland's Own, and it was clearly from a gay man lookin' t' hook up with another guy. The ad appeared a few years ago, and I couldn't believe it had been passed for publication. It was, however, subtly worded, too subtly for the culchies who work for that intellectual tome.

      By the way, I'm neither aul nor a doll.πŸ˜†

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    13. PS The Roman Catholic Church is full of nutters like Johnny Chrysostom and Padre Pio (men who gloried in personal pain). Nutters and hypocrites. Why like dear, old Papa Francesco! Criticising those calling for him to dismiss Bishop Juan Barros without 'evidence' against the man while charging Barros' accusers with 'calumny' without even a scrap of evidence against them.

      Yes, nutters and hypocrites. (Mind you, some straddle the divide.πŸ˜†)

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    14. Yes, it's where I advertise, myself. When you get to my time of life the skirt can be more difficult to pick up so one has to be subtle. And I don't want anyone with daddy issues, either.

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    15. No gold diggers either, looking for lonely farmers and their acres, ripe for newbuild bungalows at €150k a pop. Avoid the classifieds in the Ireland's Own. Try the Tablet, the readers there are more fast and loose, with little appetite for pre-Vat 2 so-called moral theology.

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    16. BOTH MAGNA CARTA’S ARE FAKE!

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    17. So is that apostrophe.πŸ˜†

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    18. It must be a greengrocer.
      The fake Magna Carta is aping me so much he's agreeing with me on punctuation.
      Sheesh!

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    19. That apostrophe is what’s called a typo. You make them yourself quite often Magna. Although it is indeed a typo it is, nevertheless, real - a real mistake - not fake - a genuine typo. Unlike you who on this blog are entirely FAKE.

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  14. Are you going to the Maynooth Union this year? Isn't it your silver jubilee?

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    Replies
    1. Must be 02:39 cos I'm replyin'.πŸ˜†

      Might be your silver jubilee ('Comin' Out The Closet!'πŸŽ‰), but mine vis Γ‘ vis Maynooth is some way off.πŸ˜†

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    2. Now now, come, come, Magna Carta!

      You see, to be a good liar, you need to have a good memory.

      And you, by previous tidbits of info you have previously given on this blog (eg reference to a fellow seminarian about whom you had concerns about his seeming paedophilic tendencies), have located you in Maynooth, in the 1980’s (mid to late).

      Therefore, you would be already past your Silver Jubilee. What is certain is that you are no spring chicken and well into your advancing middle age.

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    3. I'm not! I still wear speedos!

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    4. No, 19:16. Nothing I said on this blog located me anywhere near the 1980s.

      Poor research; even poorer recall.πŸ˜†

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    5. Magna Carta - OH YES IT DID. Liar, liar, pants on fire! Lol

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    6. You know I’m telling the truth now, Mags. Stop playing silly beggars. Everyone knows your a dysfunctional middle aged man.

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  15. Yes. That fits with the initial D. That identity has been floating around here for some time. A dismissal that was not necessary. Particularly when one thinks of who the head of the dismissing committee was.

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    1. The non-ordained/laicised can attend the Maynooth Union jubilee events by special dispencation. Let's catch up over a hot whiskey, MC!

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    2. I'm looking forward to it and will be there!
      Thank you to the commenter who feels my dismissal was unnecessary. In retrospect I did behave rather badly...

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  16. Holy smoke! -As if one "Magna Carta" wasn't enough...

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  17. Magna Carta.. Read your Bible more carefully. You have an error re/Iscariot at the Last Supper.

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    Replies
    1. It merely proves he isn't the real thing. He's also got Jesus's nature wrong.
      Honestly, some people...

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    2. G'wan! Tell me.

      The Synoptics all imply that Iscariot was present.πŸ˜†

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    3. Magna.. Hope you are well and having a good day... Judas was in the upper room as the apostles gathered for the last Supper. Before the actual meal and before the words "This is my Body etc" were said, Jesus spoke to His apostles "One of you will betray me... etc" and said to Judas that -
      - - (I paraphrase but the meaning is correct) that he had "something to do..."
      Judas walked out and made his way to the enemies of Jesus to alert them as to where He could be found and he stayed with them until Jesus and the other apostles approached. Then he stepped forward and kissed Jesus (which was the agreed sign that he had with the enemy 'Whomsoever I kiss.. ").Then Jesus proceeded with the first Eucharist
      So Judas wasn't there during it. He had gone because he realised Jesus was aware of his planned betrayal. A sad moment in the Passion story...

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    4. Yes, I am well. Thank you for asking, 18:52. I hope you are equally blessed.

      Since you answered my post respectfully, I shall return the courtesy.

      You, I'm afraid, have relied solely on John's gospel for the assumption that Judas Iscariot absented himself from the Last Supper before it climaxed in the Eucharistic transunstantiation. However, as I stated in my previous post, the Synoptics all implicitly place Judas squarely at the Eucharistic meal. In fact, Luke's gospel has Judas betray Jesus BEFORE the Passover meal in opposition to John's having Judas leave the meal before its Eucharistic component. Whom are we to believe? The three, Synoptic Gospels, or the single, Gospel of John.

      Remember the earliest of the Synoptic Gospels is Mark, a summary of Peter's preaching in Rome and written probably in the AD 60s. This is less than thirty years after those momentous events in Jerusalem. John's gospel, on the other hand, was the last to be written, possibly as late as 100AD and, therefore, many more years after those events than Mark's. Historians will tell you that a document written closer in time to the events it relates is likely to be more reliable than one written farther away in time.

      Moreover, although there is historical narrative in John's gospel, his goal is not so much the recording of events in time and place, but their theological significance for the early Christian Chuch as it lurched from one crisis to the next. Academically, it means that we have to be cautious when reading John and avoid the temptation to take him literally too much of the time.

      John was likely expressing his great distaste for Judas by judging him unfit to receive the Eucharist, and so took literary licence with historical truth by having him the meal leave early. John even melodramatises the occurrence somewhat by declaring: 'So after receiving the morsel, he (Judas) immediately went out; and it was night.' (John: 13: 30).

      There was no reason to state this astronomical and unimportant detail; it had no bearing (no relevance) to what John tells us had just occurred. But as metaphor, the word 'night' expresses more powerfully than words that this moment was evil's hour.

      John, in his gospel, is shaping historical events to express his own profound and unique theological viewpoint.

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    5. Thank you for that, 18:52. Sadly, while he thinks it was all revealed to him personally the fake Magna Carta's knowledge of scripture and theology is sadly lacking. The confabulation caused by years of abusing his poor old body sadly also causes him to invent apocryphal incidents in the gospel narratives. He once told me that one particularly bizarre event appeared in Luke's gospel but when I looked closer I found he was reading from a Harold Robbins novel. It's such a shame.

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    6. You're familiar with Harold Robbns? Such low-brow fare.

      Tell me: do your hairline and eyebrows meet?

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    7. 19.57 wikipedia theology.

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    8. Now will you go for a drink with me? You can lend me some of your brylcreem.

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    9. What? You still have hair? At your age?!πŸ˜†

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  18. The daddy issue ones are profoundly creepy. WTF is going on there. Old fat unattractive men get attention from young slim attractive men. How gross is that? As an ex-gay I always found that hard to understand.

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    1. Oooh now I'm very interested indeed. I've never come across an ex-gay before and would be interested to hear all about it

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    2. Ex-gay? As credible as that other (fake) Magna Carta.πŸ˜†

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    3. An ex-gay? You mean a bitter old queen.

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    4. Cheek!
      Actually I'm also interested to hear about it. Were you gay and are you now straight? How did it happen?
      It's far from unknown for people's sexual interests to change over a lifetime, but they wouldn't phrase it so starkly.

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    5. I thought that people who "gave up being gay" were usually bi-sexual people who in later life found a suitable female partner with who they bonded. At that point they were happy to give up the gay liaisons and other female relationships of course also. (I haven't direct experience as I am s straight person)

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    6. Anyone...why do think did that dirty old pervert who abused 3 young boys married?????????
      Was it a cover up, he must have been 50 or thereabouts when he married a woman.
      Vincent Lewis aka br Ambrose

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    7. Or maybe the poster ment ..he gave up sticking his willy in other people’s anatomy.

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    8. I'm the ex-gay. I only started gaying as part of my mid-life crisis. I'm married, a father and Grindr offered instant sex and I was lonely and felt affirmed and needed.

      There is a sort of community there and I used to talk to a few of the men there, had a laugh and became online friends.

      It coincided with my gym membership and I became very fit. That, combined with my handsome face meant I was in demand.

      But I'm now back at home. I regret what I did and feel very guilty.

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    9. The ex-gay here again. I talked to Pat on the phone about all of this and he was brilliant. His main advice was to be honest and to consider who was being harmed, if any, especially my son. Pat didn't judge and nor do I, it was just something I needed at a certain time of my life and the men were nice and kind and I've made two great friends out of it.

      Delete
  19. + Pat is asking some very important questions about the priesthood, and its current makeup, and the reasons for that, in this blog. And, the responses should really be trying to address these serious questions.

    I think the problem of a predominantly homosexual orientation priesthood / clergy is currently a western phenomenon by and large; in many African and Asian countries the clergy are still predominantly heterosexual, but that may be because of other societal factors in these cultures. I do think that there are very serious problems brewing in some Third World churches which have to do with power, sex and money, but that is a matter for another discussion, and a problem that the Church is going to have to face one day.

    But, back to the issue at hand. In the Western world, certainly from my observation, a Catholic priest is as likely to be homosexual in orientation as heterosexual. + Pat ask the question as to why homosexual men in such numbers are drawn to the priesthood ? Well, I think my own experience could be informative. Having been brought up a Catholic in the days when there was an inordinate interest in sexual sins and their consequences for one's salvation, and having been educated by priests who were imbued with this religious culture, for a young, well intentioned Catholic youth who believed in his faith, the call to priesthood looked like something that could solve the problem. A life of chastity and celibacy which was given value by the Church, and which was a pathway to leading a life that contained one's sexuality so that one did not have occasion to fall in to sin seemed a very attractive proposition. Simple ! Well, not so simple, as people like me found out as the years went by, and needed to carefully re-evaluate one's vocation and priesthood and negotiate a way of life that respected both one's priesthood and one's emotional, psychological and sexual well-being in an integrated and healthy way. I won't go in to the details of how I think I've managed to do that, but I think it can be done without resorting to simple black and white absolutist models of priesthood and how it should be lived. A priest who is not happily integrated and able to express appropriately elements of who he is, is not going to be a particularly good priest who is able to radiate joy and peace, but rather somebody who is uptight, angry and resentful, and tends to compensate for his unhappiness in all sorts of unhealthy ways. So, a no brainer is for there to be good and effective human formation in seminary, that is not just secondary to the theology and discipline, but is put at the very heart of priesthood. And then, ongoing support and encouragement for priests while they labour in the vineyard, led by the bishop and the diocese, in order to ensure that priests are healthy in every aspect of their lives. It take commitment, time, money and a desire to make sure that we have healthy and integrated and happy priests, irrespective of their sexuality.


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  20. ( Part 2 of above) I can't say that I'm a great fan of compulsory celibacy as a one size fits all discipline for the Latin Church. There is certainly a place for celibacy and it can be a powerful witness. But, for the majority of priests, celibacy is just something that they have reluctantly had to take on in order to become a priest, and for many it is the mill around their necks that has caused many of them damage and unhappiness, and often damage to others and the Church as well. So, at the risk of being shouted at by the rigourists who claim that it is an essential element of priesthood, at least in the Latin Church, I would suggest that the Church needs to get to a point where there are various pathways to priesthood that call the right people to the right kind of priesthood, including those who are not called to celibacy and are called to other ways of life = including being married with families. From my point of view, having worked out long ago that homosexual relationships lived out in faithfulness and love can be blessed and holy, I would have no problem with homosexual priests being in relationships that are loving, supportive, and loyal, and help the priest be a better priest.

    My view is that if the Church had a much more nuanced and integrated understanding of sexually and the priesthood, it would quickly find itself with a much healthier priesthood and priests who were far less inclined to live publicly one way but privately in another way. It would mean people could be who they are and express that openly, and in conjunction with ministry. We would find that many scandals and troubles that this blog hints at would diminish and we would all be in a happier place. Oh, and a holier and more blessed place too !

    + Pat asks some difficult questions, and he points to some painful hypocrisy and double standards in the Church. He deserves to be heard. Although i do not always agree with him, I do admire that in his own life and ministry he has been able to be honest about himself and to say 'this is me' and there is nothing that I am hiding. Of course, he is entitled to privacy in his private life, but generally I feel with him what you see is what you get. I wish that our bishops and our priests could be in the same enviable position.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I wouldn't like to ask you for directions to nearest chip shop.😨

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    2. Holy Moses, 14:44, were you never taught how to use PARAGRAPHS? Thon would give ye a migraine!

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  21. Pat, I read a reference to the Western Theological Institute at the beginning if the comments. Wasn't Fr Muirdeadh Tuffy involved with that? He was a very goodlooking priest who unfortunately died by suicide a few years ago, may he RIP.

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  22. Did you forward the photo of the seminarian's willy to the Papal Nuncio for his thoughts on same? Did you get a reply back from the Nuncio? Wouldn't it be interesting to see if he was more proactive with correspondence concerning the Church and Grindr than his predecessor?

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    Replies
    1. The Papal Nuncio is not into seeing a Willy he wants names and FACTS and these Bishops will be on their way now as the New papal Nuncio is NOT a showman like Charlie Brown he acts.
      But really Bishops should act FIRST however failure then Papal Nuncio does.
      I am sad it has now arrived in Hallam Diocese... however a different Papal Nuncio but far better again than the last one who no one has heard what happened to him just took back to the Vatican at least Charlie went to Albania

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  23. Pat...I think it is most unfair of you to allow Magna’s clones post.
    It was never allowed on any forum as was on.
    Just don’t publish his/ her posts again
    Thank you

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    Replies
    1. Lol good luck with that. He's been asked a number of times to ban the original Magna Carta for his abuse, but hasn't. As the enfant terrible of the independent episcopacy movement, the good bishop likes a certain degree of anarchism and provocativeness on his blog.

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    2. Pat, ignore 15:21 (it’s probably the “original MC” in any case).

      It’s great that MC#1 now has a rival in MC#2 who is well able to give him a run for his money.

      Fair focks to ye, #2 - great craic.

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    3. Thank you very much 19:23, but can I just point out that I am #1 and the other one is at best a #2?

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    4. You can always aspire to be #1, but sadly, it'll remain an aspiration beyond.

      Ambition without talent is such a tragedy. (I'm almost tearful.πŸ˜†)

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    5. Ah but I'm the the first to be officially beclamed an ex-homosexualist.

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    6. Boys-oh---A motley crew in t'night then!

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  24. John Chrysostom was not only mad, he was also evil. He was notoriously anti-Jewish and his religio-racist polemics provided a justification for the Church's persecution of the Jews throughout the centuries. It also strongly influenced the thinking of Nazi anti-Semites which led to the slaughter of six million men women and children in the Holocaust.

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    Replies
    1. You're right. He WAS deeply, fanatically anti-Semitic.

      Forgot about that.

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    2. You mean you're not? It's relief to find a race you don't dislike!

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    3. Why, I love EVERYONE! Didn't you know this? Sorry, but I forgot you're a slow (well actually, very slow) learner, aren't you? πŸ˜†

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  25. Re that "Women can't be priests. End of." abrupt comment earlier today,my reaction was "Thank goodness!" Women in general tend to think and plan well ahead and the vast majority of us wouldn't dream of aspiring to a life with an inbuilt requirement that we give up all aspirations to the gift of motherhood. There will be exceptions (and people who decide to take exception!)
    In the meantime, we have nuns if anyone is so inclined...

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  26. I wonder what topics the week ahead will bring. Hopefully, some sort of scoop, a bishop brought low, perhaps, or another seminarian out of control sexually. Such an interesting blog.

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  27. Of course women can be priests. C o E has plenty who do a great job. Sinead o Connor is/ was a priest. Orders valid but illicit. The problem is with canon law and people being programmed through the centuries

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  28. Armagh, more on Armagh please

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  29. Well, today we have ex gays here. Yesterday, it was Pat Relihan "emerging from a phase". I'm puzzled. I know of lots of guys who live as heterosexuals and then realise they are gay. And the guys in all male contexts who practice man on man sex. But a bottom guy who clearly enjoyed Dwayne Gavin's c**k, now getting a woman pregnant. Doesn't add up!

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    Replies
    1. I have known men who self-identified as bisexual who would 'top' with women and 'bottom' with men.

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    2. Well, you would, wouldn't you?πŸ˜†

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  30. Ok, fair enough Magna

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  31. I'm the author of @ 1444. It's probably instructive of the quality of responses one gets on a blog like this to what, admittedly I think of as a reasoned and sensible contribution, the only response 1444 gets is something from Magna Carta about a chip shop and some other twat about using paragraphs ! This is serious stuff, which +Pat is hosting, and I wish people would address the real issues rather than being idiots and twats !

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    Replies
    1. Learn to make your posts more readable and intelligible by employing basic literary skills and stop being such a twat yourself, you puffed up and self-important idiot!

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    2. Re @14.44. Your contribution is very good, nuanced and solid. A lot of wisdom in what you have to say and in what you propose. It's hard, however, to see it being taken seriously both by powers that be and aspirants to priesthood, for some time yet.

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    3. Far from the other Magna Carta not sticking to the topic, it's getting on for midnight and you have signally failed to provide directions to a chip shop. I'm hungry and tired after a long day working on my bibliography of the works of Barbara Cartland, and disappointed that I'm going to have to wake up one of the other Magna Cartas to ask where they've put the tin opener.
      A very poor show.

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    4. They do an excellent cowboy supper in the chip shop in Millisle.

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  32. Take the first turn on the left and on on down the road and keep going.. You can't miss it.. Just follow your nose!

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