Sunday, 21 January 2018

IRISH ANTI-CLERICALISM IS JUSTIFIED




ANTI-CLERICALISM AND ANTI ROMAN CATHOLICISM IN IRELAND ARE JUSTIFIED GIVEN THE LONG HISTORY OF CLERICAL DOMINATION AND ABUSE OF THE IRISH PEOPLE AND STATE BY GENERATIONS OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THAT CHURCH.

As someone born in the Republic of Ireland who has lived in Northern Ireland for 40 years now - and who has no fondness whatever for "unionism" I have to admit that when Northern Ireland unionists said that "HOME RULE IS ROME RULE" they were, in fact, expressing a truth.

During the centuries of British misrule in Ireland - a misrule that was unjust and barbaric - the British had plenty of support from Rome itself and from quite a number of Irish Catholic prelates.

There were of course quite a number of very honourable clerical exceptions to this state of affairs - but the exceptions were more inclined to be brave individual priests and not bishops.




The Roman Catholic Church, wherever it has existed, has generally favored the establishment - even when the establishment was patently evil. It took and takes this stance to protect its own interests - the wellbeing of its priests and bishops and the safeguarding of its assets. The history of the RC Church in South America bears this out. Of course, once again, there were notable exceptions like the late, great Oscar Romero of El Salvador.

When the TWENTY-SIX COUNTIES got its freedom from Britain in the early 1920's the RC Church in Ireland saw the opportunity to create a confessional Catholic state in Ireland and it went into overdrive to do so - aided and abetted by weak politicians and the Catholic middle and upper classes.

The arrangement was formalized in 1937 when John Charles McQuaid and a handful of well placed Catholic priests helped Eamon de Valera with his Catholic constitution.

After that, Irish Catholic bishops could truthfully say, that: "even in political matters the bishops were the final arbiters".

And from 1940 onwards the state was virtually under the control of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid of Dublin - who had gotten his job as a result of his friend Eamon de Valera petitioning the Vatican.

As in the case of Dr. Noel Browne. the Minister for Health, government ministers could be carpeted at Archbishop's House Dublin and if they did not bend the knee they lost their office. The Taoiseach who sacked Dr. Noel Browne said: "I am a Catholic first and a politician second". McQuaid and his colleagues were king makers and king breakers - and no legislation was allowed that did not first have the approval of the Purple Parliament of Maynooth.




In 1916 the Protestant population of Ireland was 12%. Within a very short space of time, it had dwindled to 3%.

Members of Protestant churches had to sign a document guaranteeing that their children would be brought up as Roman Catholic. 

Even when I was growing up in Dublin in the 1960's it was a mortal sin to go into a Protestant church.

Catholics could not attend Trinity College Dublin without the permission of McQuaid in Drumcondra. 

Writers like McGahern were sacked from their positions as teachers and had to emigrate for writing prose that was not in line with Catholic teaching and sensitivities.

Protestant shopkeepers were put out of businesses in parishes if they defied the Catholic PP.

Pregnant girls were forcibly removed from their homes and despatched to gulags run by the Brides of Christ where they became lifelong slaves and had their babies snatched away from them by frigid nuns.

Catholic couples, deprived of access to contraception ended up with 20+ children who lived in poverty and had very limited prospects in life.

Recently the nation was subjected to sexual abuse by priests, the cover up of the abuse by bishops, the Maybooth scandal and the Tuam baby scandal.

And on, and on, and on and........................................................





To me, it is a miracle that given this history of abuse and domination the Irish People did not and do not want bishops, priests and nuns dragged to a modern guillotine. 

Even this week I marveled at how nice people are to me as a wearer of the clerical collar that symbolized all this torture.

Only yesterday, in the post office queue in Larne, an 83% Protestant town, the man in front of me asked if I was in a hurry and would I like his place in the queue. I do not know his religious affiliation. 


Of course, it is good that people are kind and respectful to each other in life.

But when it comes to PUBLIC LIFE in the Republic of Ireland, it is vital that any remaining vestiges of RC clerical domination be challenged and abolished.

On the few occasions that I brought the Roman Catholic authorities before the courts the judges reminded me that, in law, the Roman Catholic Church has the same status as a golf club.

In order to get the State to act against the RC Church, you have to prove that it acted otherwise than in accordance with it's "Rule Book" - that is Canon Law.

I found it nearly impossible to do that because:

1. Canon Law is a rule book that protects the Church establishment and its senior representatives.

2. I could not get a canon lawyer to act for me.


But at least by making bishops DEFENDANTS in court cases, I was able to set a small precedent - as when I made Cahal Daly sit in the Belfast High Court as a defendant for five days.

But, if, in civil law, the RC Church has the same status as a golf club, can we not ask:

- What golf club would be allowed to ban contraception in a country?

- What golf club would be allowed ban same-sex marriage in a country?

- What golf club would be allowed to ban access to limited abortion in a country?


I'm all in favour of the RC Church being treated as a private golf club in both civil law and daily political and social matters.

And more and more the Irish People are telling this old out of control "golf club" to get back where it belongs - its churches, its presbyteries, and its nunneries. 













137 comments:

  1. Irish Catholics, especially Free State/Republic of Ireland Catholics, make me feel physically sick for their GUTLESSNESS in face of the rancid *****, Rome.

    I am a NORTHERN IRELANDER, a Catholic, but very VERY proud of his British identity. For those 'Irish Cathoilics' who can't stand this, well, you know what you can do.😆

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    1. You are proud of your British identity - the Brits who kill 200,000 babies in the womb every year???

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    2. How’s your PhD coming along magna?

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    3. MC I live in the UK pay my taxes to the Queen and as part of incorporation into CoE will have to take the oath of allegiance. I am not blind to the past but we need to look to the future. There are b*stards in all parts of society and history. I am still proud to be Irish and nobody has had a go at me yet.

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    4. Sean, I'm glad you are proud to be Irish, as I am, too, of that part of my identity.

      No one has had a 'go at you for this'. Wonderful! It's a testament to the welcome, the lack of xenophobia, among those around you.

      Unfortunately, you rarely find that in Northern Ireland especially (but also in the Republic)...if you dare to declare a British/Irish identity. And God help you should you dare to decare this identity if you are Catholic as well.

      Yes, we do need to look to the future, but try telling that to the people of Northern Ireland...many of them haven't moved beyond the time of Partition on this island, much less into the 21st century.

      I have experienced an anti-British venom on this blog from time to time. And I'm sick of it.

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    5. Well if you are sick of it may I suggest you clear off to some other blog and give our heads peace. Maybe with any luck you might fall under a bus in the process but that’s maybe too much wishful thinking Maggie.

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    6. Taste of your own medicine, Magna.

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    7. Magna 15.20, you express your dislike of what you describe as anti-British venom and that you are sick of it. Easy to make you sick, then!! Did it ever occur to you that your vicious anti-Church, anti- priest rhetoric sickens many, many people? I have no sympathy for your hurt feelings as you don't give a damn about your offensive and venomous language.

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    8. 15:44, I knew someone would respond just as you have done. Effectively, your answer is nothing more grown-up than this: 'It's my ball, so it is. You play the game MY way, or you don't play at all. So there!'

      Isn't this just how the institutional Catholic Church has always behaved:if you don't like our teachings, find another church. Yeah, very mature.

      It's the perpetual rhyme of the self-regarding, and no one really listens anymore.

      So, no; I shan't head off to another blog. If the house needs a spring-clean, then get busy with it; don't start looking for sonewhere else to live.

      Oh, watch out for that bu.! Too late.😆

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    9. 16:51, I have never been 'anti-Church'. Anti-institutional Church? Absolutely and proudly.

      I think you're part of it, aren't you?😆

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    10. MC I was born in Roscommon but the North might as well be a different planet at the time. There was one God one church take it or leave it. Sometimes I think if I were still there I'd be on a park bench by now. I never asked to go to England I ended up here. Strange it was here I eventually found salvation. This Abraham fella is more than just a myth

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    11. Thanks, Sean. And may God bless you. (He already has, for your goodness.)

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    12. Maggie dear, you're an idiot. A fool. An educated man but still a fool. If you get sick of comments, you deserve it. We wish you would just desert this blog..You insult and offend many. Find other outlets for your misery and nastiness.

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    13. I'm a Catholic unionist in NI. There are quite a few of us. And unlike the Republicans we tend to go to Mass lol.

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  2. Sorry Pat - I'm still on the subject of GC and what he did or didn't do... and his similarly disposed colleagues.
    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. You seem to spend a lot of time writing letters to Bishops... with no substantive response. You are left with only a useless duplicated and guarded set of letters.... for what that is worth. Is there a message there?
    This week we were given an example of a priest, fully promoted and venerated by the church and parishioners, who was actually an abuser. It was known by you, and several others on the blog, that he was such. You and others had informed the church authorities, and this was ignored, indeed he was subsequently promoted, and his death was attended by an honour-party of clergy.
    Your current efforts are clearly having no impact on the timely exposition of people like this - in fact, the communications failure on the Cormican guy shows that even when these abusive priests are dead the message does not come through clearly.
    So you have a large database of evil... and it is secret... hidden away unless you die in suspicious circumstances. Meanwhile, my 90 year old mother is still giving money to these guys. Frankly, if this database is relevant should you come to a suspicious end, it is relevant today. If it is usable then, it is usable today. Otherwise you should burn it. If you can't use it today, then nobody else will be able to use it if you come to a suspicious end.
    We need some way of exposing what you already know to protect today's parishioners.
    My message is simple: today's methods are not working. We see hints of something, followed by months of silence. Initial suggestions are not followed through ( Tom Cunningham is a good example... and he is dead!)
    We need a new approach - perhaps this blog would be a good vehicle to brainstorm how this could be done.
    Perhaps a start would be to review the status of accusations previously made in this blog, and set a course to expand/review them. Good luck in your work.

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    1. There is something very strange going on about the late fr cormican. There was the odd death notice then the strange funeral that the priests hardly had any envolvment in . Last night in St malachy's his last parish his name wasn't mentioned once ! Every other recent death was prayed for . I hope I'm wrong but I suspect there's a lot more we don't yet know

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    2. For Heaven's sake, poster @ 1.18
      just drop it, will you.. The man's in his grave. Can't you move on and let him rest in peace..

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    3. Wouldn’t you love it if he wasn’t mentioned again.
      No it won’t happen...

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    4. I "met" GC in the Union St bar in Belfast once. He never let on he was a priest. Was he the curate at St Peter's who abused the 18 year old?

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  3. Do you want a list of golf clubs which ban women?
    Or better still, why not do your own research!

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    1. Another thing golf clubs have in common with the RC Church :-)

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    2. Not too many nowadays , Pat, it was just a historical thing in those days....like not allowing unbaptised babies into c graves or supposedly heaven.

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  4. I recently watched a political debate on Irish television (on the internet) on the subject of Brexit. During the discussion one panelist described the Catholic church as a disaster for Ireland, the banks a disaster for Ireland, and raised the possibility of Brexit being another disaster for Ireland too. None of the other panelists contradicted him on the church or the banks and weren't too hopeful about Brexit either.

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    1. People can be so mealy-mouthed...So I can well believe what you say, poster 2.46..
      The Church needs people with backbone who have confidence in their spirituality and are not afraid to speak up!

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    2. All the panellists had probably been born in Catholic hospitals and educated in Catholic schools. What happened to gratitude?

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    3. All the panellists had probably been born in Catholic hospitals and educated in Catholic schools. What happened to gratitude?

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    4. 13:40 - Paid for by the Irish State and taxpayer!!!

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    5. I suspect that the way Ireland is going Leaving Cert History exams will ask if the Penal Laws were a good or a bad thing. I'd say bad, but I suspect that a good number would say good. How have we come to this? Part of it is to do with the mortal sins of the abuse crisis. This includes the collapse of the application of Canon Law (a law Pat derides), which was identified in the Murphy Report.

      P.S. have you seen the Fake News about the Papal Plane Wedding? Nothing spontaneous about it, last December the happy couple revealed their plans for a mid air wedding witnessed by the Most Humble Pope Ever.

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    6. Only the case in recent years.

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  5. Even to this day if a parish wants to open a school the State funds it. Our local school was funded €100k by parish fund raising plus several million from the Dept of Education. The Dept pay the salaries while the PP is the Chairman. The school is about 15 years old, and the extention built since was completely funded by the Dept.

    It would be a fine thing for the State to compulsary purchase these back, having recognition for the State funding (both capital and revenue)... shall we say €1 per school?

    Same for Hospitals... and starve Maynooth from funds by building new buildings

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    1. You are right, tax payer money precious. I would like my tax money to not pay for people who have become ill through poor sexual morality - all, not just those mentioned on this blog. Health, benefits etc. Stop it, put it into the education of the young! All points of views shared here - right?

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    2. @15.49 Healthcare is the right of citizens not of the laity. Tax pays for healthcare and all money allocated to caring for the sick should be spent on not-for-profit health systems. Instead a good chunk money from the health budget goes to renting archaic builds from archaic orders of nuns.

      Schools funded by the State should be State controlled.

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    3. It's only right that Maynooth University pays €8 million a year to rent buildings from St Patrick's College. They use the historic buildings in their marketing for kudos and to imply that it is an old university. The relationship suits both MU and SPCM.

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  6. The more I think about it the more I come to believe that both priests and people are victims of an opressive and unjust system that has enslaved Ireland for years. The church has done great good and great hurt. People and Clergy need to address the future but have they the courage to do it properly

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  7. You make the hypocritical claim that you have no fondness for Unionism. This comes from a man who stood recently in a loyalist bar next to a UVF symbol smiling and drinking a pint of beer. I don't think you have any clue what hurt and pain you caused families like mine who had loved ones murdered by the UVF. Remember that they carried out the bombings in Dublin and Monaghan too and you say you have no fondness for Unionism - catch yourself on. There are many in West Belfast who are angry with that photograph of you mixing with the UVF and I can tell you the Shinners are far from impressed. So don't come on here pretending you have no time for Unionism.

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    1. I have no hatred for unionism.

      I do not desire a United Ireland - especially if the RC crowd have any part of it.

      I want to see a NEW IRELAND.

      I do not answer to the people of West Belfast, Sinn Fein or the unionists.

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    2. Who do you answer to?

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  8. Pat, this subject has already been covered many times. The truth is that Irish society has come to a place where, for many, the Church is no longer relevant. They appreciate the liturgical rituals, will come at Christmas and Easter, but after that, the Church realises that it has a huge challenge to reach out in a new way. As a priest I regret that this is the reality but I think it's all part of a radically changing society, morally, culturally, politically, spiritually. I feel we have passed the anti clerical phase as we now matter only to those who come to Church and at particular moments. I work with what's given to me. You are repeating the same old themes - anti clericalism. The truth is, most priests have disowned themselves a long time ago from this mindset of clericalism. We saw its dangers long before you and the majority of priests adapt to new challenges every day. There is a dishonesty, meanness and hypocrisy underlying your repetitive subject matter. But if it keeps you in business, be it on your own conscience. I'd find more productive ways to expend my time and energy.

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    1. If you have disowned the things I speak about why do you not speak out against them publicly?

      And why are you anonymous here?

      The truth is that as long as you stay silent in the system you are part of the problem!

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    2. 'Nominal' Christians attending a few rituals; christenings, weddings and funerals, but are not into the substance of religion. That is what it has become in Scotland and England. Redundant churches, or churches used for other purposes are common place.

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    3. You work with what is given to you. Isn't part of your vocation as a priest to come out of your comfort zone and go out to the market place and meet and greet. Conversion.

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    4. Happy Harry 14.34: I do not have or live in a comfort zone. I meet and greet my parishioners within the boundaries of my parish and my workload is pretty demanding, thus my priority precisely is "to care for and mind the place and people" given to me. That is my 24 hour task and I assure you it is my primary focus.

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    5. I thought everyone is anonymous here?

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    6. John King, Sean Page and Magna Carta aren't anonymous.

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  9. Pat at 10.25: In response to my comments at 10.23, I believe that soetimes we do a lot of talking and criticising without offering solutions. I try my best to do what's possible, manageable and worthwhile in my parish. Parishioners would be aware of my disapproval of much of what happens in the Church but I feel it's better to concentrate my energies on the work given to me. I find there is so much negativity that if engaged in is a stranglehold on my vision, commitment and creativity. I also make my views known at Diocesan gatherings. My sole focus is on the task entrusted to me in my present appointment. I find the encouraged anti priest comments very disturbing and I think you have covered it so often. The truth is Pat, sadly, for many, many people the Church is at the fringes of their lives and many just arrive now only for various events. So, I will try with great struggle to do my best in my situation.

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    1. I do believe that you are very sincere in what you are doing and saying.

      But are you not, at least to some extent, like a functionary in Germany's main political party in the late 1930's?

      The people in your branch of the party know you disapprove of a lot of what is going on.

      And you even speak up at party gatherings.

      But the machine rolls on and there is no change?

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    2. Pat at 10.51. I think it is perfectly possible to be an effective priest despite the Machiavellian politics of the Church, once you believe in - and - try to implement the essence of the gospel. I most certainly am not a functionary of any kind and never was. My belief is that you must focus on what I am given to do and be as dedicated to the vineyard given to me to care for. To be caught up in so much negativity and nasty criticism is poisonously dangerous. I'm interested in responding to the challenges I face and to do my best for parishioners. In this I find great fulfilment. Yes, I desire a better expression of being Church but I am free to create that in the parish where I work.

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    3. You missed out part of your comment:
      '...and turn a blind eye to rampant sin, crime and neglect of gospel principles.'
      I just know you meant to add that, didn't you?

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    4. The Church is now something comparable to the Nazi party? Well, the movie "Three Billboards" and many other anticlerical pieces use that sort of scorched earth logic. But there are still good priests who really do minister very helpfully to people. Blind anticlericalism is undermining their work and cutting off more channels between the Irish people and the gospel.

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    5. 15.59, if you are responding to my comment at 14.11, I certainly don't require you to lecture me on what you think I should say. I am more than aware of the sinful and criminal wrongs committed by church personnel. I have spoken out against such abhorrent crimes and I am very aware of my own responsibilities in protecting children and young people. I endeavour always to apply and live "gospel principles" to all my work as a priest but always depending on God's grace.

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    6. Thank you 18:11, I was thinking of going to "Three Billboards" but won't give my hard earned dollars to it. Life's too short.

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  10. Pat, where do you stand on priests who dress up in old vestments and go around their parishes dressed like priests from 50 years ago or 150 years ago? To be clear, I'm not referring to a high collar. I'm referring to a biretta, capppa etc Can you do an expose on these people? Perhaps contact their bishops and ask if they think this is the way forward?

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    1. I cannot understand why present day priests, especially the younger ones, go around dressed as you do.

      An example is the curate in Armagh cathedral - Thomas McHugh - who says public Mass everyday dressed these old style Roman vestments.

      Look at the cathedral webcam and you will see him at it.

      And of course Eamon Martin sees this and allows it.

      Also many bishops dress in similar ways at least on occasions.

      Diarmuid Martin dress like a 1950's bishop for a Mass in Poland recently.

      And yer man, Campbell in Lancaster, does it all the time.

      Personally I think there is something wrong inside their heads!

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    2. Excuse me! You are asking Pat to criticise the way other people dress!.
      What other people wear is their business I should have thought.

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    3. Actually, Pat, these "old style Roman vestments" (presuming you mean the so-called fiddle back chasubles) are probably the newest style of chasuble. The gothic style and conical style which are the most commonly used chasubles are actually much older than the Roman style. Maybe you should do an exposé on the liberals who are unknowingly dressing as proper traddies with their gothic and conical chasubles!

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    4. I understand.

      But you do understand that the fiddlebacks are associated with pre Vat 11 and the gothic with Vat 11.

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    5. Lol....not if are a priest, a servant of the church, you should dress appropriate for the sacrament you are about at the time.
      Got it...good

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    6. Presumably, this is in rural Ireland where they’re camping it up.

      Back in 2010 the former archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams said: "I was speaking to an Irish friend recently who was saying that it's quite difficult in some parts of Ireland to go down the street wearing a clerical collar now.”

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    7. That vesture was worn by countless generations of priests, including very many saints. The Catholic church did not begin in 1962. I dare say that 10:46 is knocking on a bit. Those Spirit of Vatican II battles are irrelevant to the few young Catholics who go to Mass. We were born in the 1990s, the 2000s. Imagine that. We like order, ritual, reverence. Your generation failed us.

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    8. Were polyester floating chasubles the way forward? It didn't seem to work in my parish where most of the Massgoers are ready for a Zimmer frame. Hope it worked out better in your parish.

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    9. Pat, regarding your response to me at 13:35 - "But you do understand that the fiddlebacks are associated with pre Vat 11 and the gothic with Vat 11":

      Firstly, some people - perhaps many - do indeed associate (insofar as they spend time thinking about such things) the Roman chasuble with the time before the Second Vatican Council.

      I, however, do not, because I know that the Church has not issued any regulations since said council on the type of chasuble to be worn. All that is required (in ordinary circumstances) is that the celebrant of the Mass wear a chasuble.

      You acknowledge that it is merely a perception - an association - that the Roman style is pre-Second Vatican Council and that the Gothic is post-Second Vatican Council. In other words, it is individuals who have created that perception, yet you question the mental state of those who chose to wear Roman vestments, not of those who knowingly perpetuate incorrect perceptions! This hardly seems fair or reasonable.

      Your logic seems to read thus: "I and/or persons x, y, and z, have a perception that Vatican II got rid of fiddleback chasubles. Vatican II actually did no such thing, meaning that these perceptions are ill-informed and incorrect. Fr. A wears a fiddleback chasuble, therefore there is something wrong inside his head".

      And then you allow persons with such erroneous perceptions to make assumptions about why Fr. So-and-so really wears the Roman chasuble. God forbid that we could entertain such a straightforward reason as (i) it is actually his choice to wear Gothic or Roman, (ii) he prefers the Roman chasuble to the Gothic one.

      As to 10:46's original comment, I would hope that bishops, clergy and laity would see that there are more pressing matters with regard to the "way forward" for the Church than what kind of vestments a priest wears. What a nonsensical suggestion that you do an exposé on certain priests - how riveting: Fr. X wears a Roman chasuble...but this is nowhere near as horrific as the troubling case of Fr. Y who actually wears an amice when celebrating Mass...Better look away if you're easily distressed because in part three we reveal that Fr. Z has been known to wear a biretta from time to time. And without his bishop knowing as well. OMG. Stop the press.

      Finally, I second and reiterate the sentiment of 14:03 regarding "the way forward": the spirit of Vatican II generation has failed us young Catholics abysmally. While many of my peers have abandoned the faith, my own faith has been nourished, deepened and matured immeasurably by the traditional Mass, beauty, reverence and, yes, by Roman chasuble-wearing priests!

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    10. And don!t forget that in the run up to V2 conical vestments were associated with the liturgucal movement. In the 19th century gothic chasubles were associated with the Gothic anti-baroque movement. All of these types of vestmenta are associated with ideologies and different ways of being church.
      Personally I don't like Roman vestments because they are caricatures of how they originated. Maniples you could take a pizza out of the oven with. Flaps for sleeves on the dalmatic.
      These type of vestments are disliked because they are actually seen as a symbol of decay and corruption of the faith in the baroque age, as seen in the liturgy of the time.
      But of course these things are perception and different people will perceive them differently.

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    11. Thank you, 16.46.

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    12. Very lol, 16:46 re your description of the expose.

      Agree with you 100% on young Catholics. The experimentation of the last 50 years hasn't worked... If they go to Mass, they are looking for an encounter with the Lord not with the personality of the priest, who so often turns into a performer. This is not a question of us going back to the 1950's; it is a question of authentic Catholic worship, which more and more young people (who are very much living in the 21st century) are experiencing through the traditional Mass.

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  11. Bishop Buckley are you feeling Well? Personally, over this last few weeks I think you are losing it. Today's blog is so anti Catholic I thought it was something from Ivan Foster or David McIlveen. The anti Catholic sentiments you have spewed out today and other days made me think you were not a well man in the head. As for someone offering you a place in the queue at Larne post office, perhaps they thought you were a Protestant because of your anti Catholic stance. How sad! Will you be having your funeral in a Catholic or protestant church I wonder? I'm sure Pastor McConnell might bury you as he's not too hot on Catholics either.

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    1. Unfortunately for you I am "dangerously well" :-)

      I am NOT anti Catholic. I treasure my catholic faith and my priestly vocation and will celebrate catholic Mass in 40 minutes time.

      But I am anti the corrupt RC institution.

      I am 34 years in Larne and well known here and everybody knows I am a catholic (notice the small c).

      I imagine my funeral will take place here at The Oratory.

      I have no time for poor Pastor McConell. He is as blind on the Prod side as you are on the RC side.

      Maybe he would do your funeral :-)

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    2. Didn't a rc priest run to the court along with pastor McConnell and publicly hugged each other outside the court door

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    3. Yes. Fr. Patrick McCafferty who was sexually abused by Fr. James Donaghy.

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    4. Did you enjoy writing that11.17
      You should have waited until you had lunch.
      You probabl6fasting from midnight last night.
      A real Christian post...not

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  12. Do the Little Brothers still exist? Haven’t heard of them for quite a while despite the promises of an address and website.

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    1. Yes. They are still here. They can be contacted ad interm through The Oratory.

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  13. Interesting article in the LA Times Review Of Books. Marginalia, about Ireland and the reformation.
    https://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/unreformable-ireland-the-failure-of-the-reformation-in-ireland/

    Notice that mention is made of the Latin BCP which reminded me that Latin was vital to the spread of reformed ideas. Several Latin versions of the Bible were issued for Protestants. Lutherans used Latin for years after their founder’s death. The revival of Unitarianism was due to a book in Latin by a fellow known by his Latin name. I won’t mention Swedenborg’s or Spinoza’s use of Latin since they flourished after the reformation.

    This important use of Latin, your so-called Catholic language, is ignored by modern maniple wearers as well as by their polyester clad colleagues.

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    1. What the hell is your point?

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    2. LOL! Mr. Magna C, You sound like my wife since I’m often obtuse.

      I mention the article because it implies that Irish loyalty at the time of the reformation to Rome and its clerics might not have been inevitable as apologists claimed. “ Catholicity runs in Irish blood” is a phrase I remember reading in a 19th century work.

      Latin is not limited to the RCC as Traddies would have you believe since it played a major role in disseminating ideas amongst the reformers, and for many other reasons beyond religion.

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  14. The widespread disappearance of the Roman chasuble since Vatican II is easily explained. It was designed to be seen from behind, the priest facing the same direction as the people during most of the Mass. For the same reason it is the chasuble of choice for what we must now call "the Extraordinary Form".

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  15. Is there more to come out about the life of Fr Greg Cormican?

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    1. I know everything. I could tell you what you had for your breakfast this morning

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  16. I have news for a lot of you, guys today it seems.... We, as the congregation couldn't give a toss which style of vestments you are wearing! Most of us wouldn't notice.. We're more interested in your sincerity and to some extent in your punctuality and yes, we need to be punctual too. Spend a lot less time agonising over such peripherals. It's all so silly and childish.

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    1. Your post reflects the performer/audience dynamic of the new Mass. The priest's "sincerity" is irrelevant. Did you not hear Pope Francis when he asked "who am I to judge?"

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  17. The R.C is practised in virtually every language in the world. The Church is universal and therefore uses the vernacular as well as the historic Latin of its roots and its scholars.

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    1. I wouldn’t call the current Mass prayers ‘verbacular’ - not by a long shot.

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    2. The poster at 17.59 said "vernacular" as in the language generally spoken by the people in the region in which that particular Mass is being said.

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    3. 17:59. It's vernacular not verbacular.

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  18. Imagine that
    Ha ha ha, who wd of believed..Polyester ...??????
    Suppose the Latin types have silk sheets as well ha ha ha
    Think most of my fashion is made in China
    Yep polyester uniforms on the kids too
    How could I?????

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    1. Now Pat can we stop any more posts about chausables and long johns.
      As a member of the laity I wouldnotice and I couldn’t care less

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    2. You should care more.

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  19. Could someone please explain to me what 'clericalism' is or give me some examples of it as might be found in the average priest!
    I have never been aware of anything of an "I am superior to you" attitude to you in my priests! Rather, they are just like any good,friendly and normal neighbours. So please,someone, enlighten me please!


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    1. For many generations earnest, young male seminarians have been taught that they are aspiring to a higher level not available to the laity, a level at which they will have the authority to teach, sanctify and govern those below. They will carry with them sacred powers that will accompany them even into eternity. For such privileges they promise to become eunuchs for the kingdom, and they pledge to defer their own judgments without reservation to the authoritative pronouncements of those on still higher levels, be it pastor, bishop or pope.

      In effect, they become members of a kind of boys club that is warm, supportive and exclusive — and never breaks ranks. For what they give up, they can expect a relatively high standard of living and the respect, even adulation (at least until the abuse scandal hit), of their grateful congregations.

      Of course, priests have always been urged to develop an active spiritual life, to nourish virtues like humility and self-sacrifice. And a great number of the clergy do manage to live holy, creative lives and inspire their people with their integrity. Their membership in the boys club is loose.

      But not everyone succeeds. Clericalism is contagious, breeding a kind of mentality that revels in ecclesiastical ambition, status and power. For some, especially those attracted to the episcopacy, it often leads to indifference toward the experiences and needs of ordinary Catholics.

      Robert McClory. NCR.

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    2. The problem is, give them the choice between McClory and the Giant's Ring... and we all know the answer.

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  20. Pope Francis

    Clericalism is a path taken by those who, unlike the good shepherd, concern themselves with money and power and not with people who are suffering and neglected, Pope Francis said.

    Hypocrites, even within the church, focus either on being friends with powerful people or “think about what is inside their pockets,”.

    “These are the hypocrites, they are capable of anything; they don’t care about the people,” he said. “When Jesus uses that beautiful adjective that he uses so many times with them - ‘hypocrites’ - they are offended: ‘But not us, we follow the law.'”

    Unlike a good shepherd, who is always close to and moved by those who suffer, the clerics who criticized Jesus were perhaps more concerned with “when the religious service would end so they could go and count how much money was made in the offerings,” the pope said.

    “Jesus was always there with people rejected by that clerical group,” the pope said. “There were poor people, sick people, sinners and lepers. But they were all there because Jesus had this ability of being moved in the face of sickness; he was a good shepherd.”

    Good shepherds like Jesus who “are not ashamed of touching the wounded flesh” of the suffering are a “grace for the people of God” and a reminder that “not only them, but us as well, will be judged” on the treatment given to the hungry, the sick and the imprisoned, he said.

    “Let us not forget this: The good shepherd is always close to the people, always, as God our father has made himself close to us in Jesus Christ made flesh,” Francis said.

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  21. Pope Francis is correct. Clericalism is sinful and destructive. All priests are not into clericalism. Most I believe are doing their best to be true to the ideals of the gospel and to the vision which Pope Francis articulates. It is unfair to conclude that all priests are tainted by clericalism. Yes, many have brought condemnation, derision and shame to the Church but let's not paint all with the same strokes. Pat, it's very convenient of you now to quote Pope Francis to suit your argument but tomorrow you'll tear strips of him as you've done before. You are indeed an anachronism.

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    1. By dint of the fact that they are priests itself, they are into clericalism, the caste apart.

      Roman Catholic theology of priesthood lionises mere men, makes them into demi-gods.

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    2. Bergolio is the arch-clericalist. A Provincial of the Jesuits at an early age (though even he admits that his authoritarianism wreaked havoc) then he worked his way up the system. A pope decrying clericalism is like a prime minister denouncing politics.

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  22. I have just looked at th Bishop of Lancaster’s blog from last week. Sorry I don’t know how to copy links. Sat on his throne wearing green laced gloves with a huge ring on the outside with a mitre nearly a metre tall on his head. Oh and the Priest beside him wearing a beretta. Does the average lay person want to see this? No! Is this attracting people back to Holy Mass? No? What on earth is going on? I don’t doubt your Bishop is a nice and holy man, but is this leadership? He wouldn’t look out of place at a drag show! Who advises these men? Don’t the lay faithful get asked their opinion on if this is what they want to see? I also notice the they have “Diocese within a Diocese” and 2 Cathedrals in Lancaster Diocese. Someone needs to get a grip up there!

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    1. 20.34 The parishioners in the Diocese of Lancaster are in a state of shock. I went on a course for evangelization and I wasn't sure if the bishop wanted us back in the 19th century or the 1950s. In our local parish the priest is from Kerala. No one can make out what he is saying.

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    2. I imagine you are quite old and your children are lapsed. Good work, Vatican II.

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    3. @7.58
      You are completely wrong in your uninformed assessment of me and my family. Such arrogance!

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    4. Most children and grand children are lapsed. When I did first communion, not only did the children never come to church, neither did their parents or grandparents. The situation is the same in most of the first world. We are going through a seismic shift. How the church is going to manifest itself in the future is very uncertain. The last big intake for priests was 1965.

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    5. 1965 was the last big intake of priests. 1965 was the final session of Vatican II. No connection between these two events, none whatsoever, mere coincidence.

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    6. 12:39 well it provides you with a livelihood. Just as Bishop Joe Duffy of Clogher said, notoriously, "it'll do for our day".

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    7. I was born in 1968, after the Council. This has been the faith trajectory in my family:

      Grandparents, parents, children: Sunday Mass, all. 1968-1975

      Grandparents, parents, children: Sunday Mass grandparents, parents only 1975-1990.

      Grandparents RIP. Parents RIP. Children no Mass. 1990 》

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    8. 15.12 I suspect that many men went to be priests as it was a free route to a good education. Now university is open to all, you can study theology or spirituality without chaining yourself to the priesthood or local bishop. People used to be naïve and easily manipulated by the church. Those days are over and with the internet the church can no longer hide their scandals. If the church
      tries to turn the clock back, it will be like the Amish sect. A tiny group of eccentrics completely at odds with the rest of society. 1968 is the year when the church crashed and it HSAs never recovered. If the church retreats into a medieval fantasy, where the serfs knew their place, it will have completely lost it..

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  23. Oh, the cow in the meadow goes moo,
    Oh, the cow in the meadow goes moo.
    Then the farmer hits him on the head and grinds him up,
    And that's how we get hamburgers :)

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    1. Not quite sure of the relevance here but I thought this sounded like a "Phoebe" song! (Friends, sitcom) and so it is! lol.. https://youtu.be/Jjy0kyjhhs4

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  24. @20.34, Given the fact that it seems to be the traditional Catholic seminaries which are enjoying a healthy flow of vocations, hundreds of young men in priestly formation in SSPX and FSSP alone for example, one might very well argue that the pre-1962 church ceremonial experience, including its vestments, is exactly what Catholics, including the young, want to experience.

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    1. You think that young men want to experience vestments .
      What3ver next.
      What is the world of clerics turning into?

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    2. A healthy flow of vocations? Ha ha But to what? God? Bullsh*t! These men don't enter seminary to serve God, but their own vanity and preferred ecclesiology (pre-Vatican II). They want a model of church that is fundamentally clericalist. A grave sin, according to Papa Francesco.😆

      Sure, in this world there'll be no shortage of such clowns; but don't ever be gullible enough to believe that they are servants of Christ.😈

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    3. Dear Rory, one might argue that? That ‘argument’ which is so superficial as not to be an argumentt, is a meme which appears here frequently, and on right-wing blogs all over the place, liberally. If you are into the bingo numbers game, a brief perusal of the Annuario Pontificio will call time on that delusion. There you will see the world-wide statistics detailing seminarian and priestly and religious numbers in formation. In that conext your arithmetic wont be too challenged to put this flas in the pan in proportion.

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    4. "Hypocrites, even within the church, focus either on being friends with powerful people or “think about what is inside their pockets,” Said Pat. Are you talking about friends of Francis such as Cardinal Maradiaga? Who is pocketing thousands of euros a month to be figurehead of a university that he hasn't seen for years and against whom hundreds of witnesses have attested about his misuse of Church funds and yet nothing is done. Or Bishop Barros of Chile who is a friend of the pontiff and who is accused of being present when children were abused by several victims. 'Bring me the proof, it's calumny' said Francis to the press within the last few days. Read 'The Dictator Pope' and don't quote him as an example to anyone.

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    5. Very poor turnout at a lot of the events in Francis' Flying Circus. Did he do any more "impromptu" weddings.

      People in Rome tell me that the General Audience attendances have collapsed and that the Piazza is a wasteland at the Angelus. I suppose people don't want to travel all the way to Rome to be scolded, which is all that he seems to do.

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    6. Francis is in denial. Didn't he bring back a priest Benedict had defrocked and the same priest went on to reoffend. Francis probably felt merciful but the victims were shown no mercy.

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  25. Inconvenient advice from St. Paul -
    Ephesians 5: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not so much as be named among you, as becomes saints. Or obscenity, or foolish talking, or scurrility, which is to no purpose; but rather giving of thanks. For know you this and understand, that no fornicator, or unclean, or covetous person (which is a serving of idols), hath inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

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    1. A lot of the Bible is inconvenient. But modern Catholic ears are untroubled by it. Notoriously, Catholics don't read the Bible at home and in the new Mass all the hard and awkward bits have been excised from the Lectionary.

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    2. Not remotely true!

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    3. Really 08:57?
      The so-called ‘new Mass’ has a far greater biblical selection than that of Pius V.

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    4. I think that St. Paul was making a point, MC. Merely passing it on, it seems so appropriate here.

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    5. The Mass of St Pius V went back to the fourth century. The New Mass was written by English College seminarians in a Roman trattoria.

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  26. Most Spirit of Vatican II priests know that they'll be the last priest in their parish. Sorry to break the news, folks, but V2 failed to deliver the goods. In the West it's game over. In Africa the Church grows simply because births exceed deaths, but Africa will go the way of Latin America once the American evangelicals arrive in great number. The Philippines is going that way now.

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    1. Ain't that the truth!

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  27. I'm not sure I can define clericalism, but I know 'up their own arses self important on a pedestal indelibly sacramentally signed cultic self serving prancing around twats' when I see them ! I know clergy, and whilst there are some very clever, able and bright ones, the run of the mill are nothing special in giftedness, except perhaps they were chosen by their parish priest when an altar boy to be sent to the minor seminary and went through the system believing that they had been specially chosen and called. The over egging of the priestly character and is specialness is then carried on by men who by and large have little else to bolster their egos. And for centuries the faithful have swallowed it and put priests on to a special pedestal, where they could exercise instant wisdom and authority and nobody would question it.

    Until, that is, the faithful saw the filth and dirt that existed in the priestly ranks. And I'm not talking about just the odd little human foible, but the systematic abuse through greed, power and lust of others, and the protection of the abusers by the bishops in the interests of the reputation of the Church and the need to avoid scandal.

    Within walking distance of where I live there is a church where priests, and many of them young, walk around like they are living in the 1850s, where Mass in the Tridentine Rite is still celebrated, and where the pastoral and spiritual response to people is rigorous and harsh, particularly if you have difficulties in your relationships, marriage, or have a sexuality that is 'intrinsically disordered'! And the oddest chocolates in the box are the idiots up on the altar, bowing around the place, tipping their birettas endlessly throughout Mass, and generally acting like something out of Rome of the mid-19th century.

    Bishop Campbell of Lancaster, a native of Larne himself, seems to have bought in to this nonsense, I suspect because these odd orders and institutions have offered to take over buildings that he and his diocese simply cannot afford to keep open. They bring with them lots of young photogenic seminarians and priests from eastern Europe and LeFebrite institutions in France, and young culture war warriors from America, and everybody thinks it's wonderful. Until, of course, they need to have recourse to these people for some pastoral support, and then they will be hit with the full rigour of the black and white moral theology of the Church and told that unless they live it they will go to Hell.

    If we allow this style to flourish the Church will become irrelevant to most Catholics and to the world. The solution ? Well, its mainstream. Ensure that our clergy and our churches are led by people who are rooted in the world, who understand what it is to earn a living, to keep to a budget, to create flourishing relationships and families, and to be able to engage with all people. Who are they ? Some of them will be single men, but the majority should be mature married men with families, and yes, women too ! Then the Church will be led by people who are firmly grounded in reality, rather than by people who prance around in a twee bubble of birettas, lace, incense, and who live a 'nested' life immune to the world of work, family, and relationships.

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  28. Trying to guess your age. At least 60? The collapsed church of your era is over, fin, finito. It didn't work then, it doesn't work now. I guarantee that all your children are lapsed and your grandchildren are unbaptised. The hated biretta-wearers seemed to evangelize the world, somehow. Introibo ad altare Dei

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    1. Biretta-wearing evangelists is an oxymoronic collection of syllables.

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  29. Not sure if 1106 is a response to my post at 0923. Actually, I'm a bit younger than 60, and also a priest, but one who long ago realised that the clerical club was dysfunctional, and I've made huge efforts to avoid getting drawn in to it too much, except for the ministry that I'm involved with.

    I think you are right about the way children and grandchildren are lapsed and / or unbaptised, and the way it is going for the Church. There will be a rump left, who will see themselves as the righteous few, and take some pride in being a remnant. But it will be a strange, eccentric and rigorous remnant, increasingly irrelevant.

    The Church has do die in order for something to come back to life. I think the sooner we get that, and accept it, the better it will be for all.

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  30. Wrong... on all counts.

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  31. 12.39 Couldn't agree more.

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    1. 12:39. Couldn't agree less.

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  32. That photo of Francis gives me the creeps. So insincere.

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  33. PARS PRIMA:

    Your arrogance, Father (at 09:23 and 12:39) is quite astounding. You dismiss those (the "eccentric and rigorous remnant" as you call them) who hold to the Catholic faith, and assert that they are wrong - these people who value and love their Catholic faith; but you are so sure that all of this has to die. Perhaps this is why so many priests today are content to sit back while their flocks vanish from the pews - the attitude being, "well, this has to happen". Surely this is the first time in the history of the Church that this attitude has prevailed - I don't recall hearing of the existence of this attitude during the Roman persecutions or when Irish Catholics risked death in order to go to Mass. They believed that the faith was worth defending and even worth dying for because they believed it to be true. Perhaps - and I suspect that it is the case - many, many priests today do not believe in even the fundamentals of the faith. It's easy then to say, "well the Church has to die in order to be reborn" and it's easy to criticise the traditionalist clergy who - hard as it may be for you to acknowledge - actually do have the faith, actually believe that it is worth defending, and who are actually attracting young people back to the Church. And please do not patronise young Catholics as if they are only attracted to tradition by externals: no, they know truth when they see it, they want to hear the truths of our faith preached during Mass, they want to see priests giving due reverence (bows and genuflections, for example, which you seem to disdain) to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

    You criticise these traditional priests for preaching "black and white" moral theology (though you yourself seem quite "black and white" in your own outlook), claiming that they are not "rooted in the world", that they do not experience real hardships or the reality of keeping a budget. In fact what you describe sounds to me like many a parish priest today rather than the cassock and biretta-wearing clergy against whom you rave.

    Have you, for example, heard of the Canons of St. John Cantius in Chicago? One priest - it only started with one - asked permission about twenty-five years ago to take over a church in Chicago which was due for closure. There were barely any people coming to Mass and the church was in a dilapidated state. This priest, Fr. Frank Phillips, had to raise millions of dollars to restore the church (which was recently voted the most beautiful church in America). He had the aim of evangelising through beautiful liturgy. They now celebrate the sacraments in both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms of the Roman Rite. The church is open for most of the day (at a time when many churches are now locked during the day), the Masses on Sunday are packed with young families, there are queues for confession, people flock to traditional devotions and processions. And, yes, many men have joined this community as priests and brothers. I have seen all of this first hand on a several occasions. But no, these priests have never experienced hardship or the realities of the world - presumably, they raised this church from the ashes and attract the biggest congregation in Chicago by walking around like they "are living in the 1850's" (to use your expression). But, this is the Church that you are happy to see die.

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  34. PARS SECUNDA:

    Indeed, closer to home, there is the Institute of Christ the King in Limerick (the mention of which, I imagine, gets you rather hot under the collar). They, likewise, took over a dilapidated church - which was already closed (in other words, they were not saving a church from closure because the diocese couldn't afford to keep it open, as you suggest is happening). This small community of priests focused on repairing the interior of the church for the glory of God, so much so that for five winters they did not have heating in the house. But again, as you say, such men have no experience of budgets or living in harsh conditions.

    I wonder how many churches you have saved recently, Father? How many converts have you received into the Church in the past ten years? How many winters have you spent in an unheated presbytery? I really would love to know, but I cannot imagine that such things really trouble a man who believes that the Church needs to die.

    As a young Catholic, I do not make any apology for loving the Catholic faith, the Church and her tradition. If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't have converted to Catholicism. It is incredibly sad that you and other men who are supposed to be our shepherds hold the Church and the faith in such disdain. The Church will not die. A remnant most certainly will, but not the remnant that you think! Truth and tradition will win in the end, because it goes deeper than externals. As for the make-it-up-as-you-go-along, DIY, "faith" born of the so-called spirit of Vatican II, it's bye-bye and Requiescat in Pace.

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  35. 22.44...and 22.45 - part of me is inclined to tell you to take a chill-pill.

    However, I can only agree with your passionate response. At least these traditionally-minded bishops and clergy are doing something. I wouldn't consider myself a "traddy" - though I don't mind the Latin Mass at all - but I have more respect for the priest in the cassock who clearly stands for something than I have for the priest who sits around waiting for the Church to die.

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  36. The Church, very wisely, gave priests St. John Vianney as their model in the year of priests. He was a humble person who lived on mouldy bread and possessed only a bed and a chair. Yet heads of state and high churchmen queued for his advice and miracles abounded around him. He was no academic and was able to become a priest only because his bishop gave special permission because he was devoted to the Rosary. St. John was not alone, there were others who try to emulate him and I have met a few in a long life. They exist now though, I guess very few in numbers. Such is the remnant priesthood through whose prayers the Church will be saved.

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  37. I don't mean this in a mocking way, not at all. I have always found priests to be great company and I wish the laity would invite them out for an ordinary evening, say a film, the pub, a group of mates, just have a laugh. Personally I'm grateful for the help that priests have given me.

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  38. Didn't the Jesuits sell Christ the King church in Limerick knowing that the nave was to be turned into a swimming pool with the reredos retained as an eye-catching backdrop? Says it all, really.

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  39. Fair play to you Bishop Pat. You allow a variety of views on your blog. That's rare, either on the trad or lib blogs. Thank you!

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