Wednesday, 19 July 2017

SEX CHANGE GUYS, GALS AND PRIESTS

HELEN SAVAGE (FORMERLY MARK) WAS AN ANGLICAN PRIEST UNTIL HER SEX CHANGE
IN THE SUMMER OF 2013 ARURAL IRISH PARISH PRIEST CONTACTED ME TO TELL ME SOMETHING THAT HE HAD NEVER TOLD ANYONE BEFORE.

HE TOLD ME THAT HE HAD BEEN BORN A HERMAPHRODITE.

Wikipaedia explains the condition:
In biology, a hermaphrodite is an organism that has reproductive organs normally associated with both male and female sexes.[1] Many taxonomic groups of animals (mostly invertebrates) do not have separate sexes.[2] In these groups, hermaphroditism is a normal condition, enabling a form of sexual reproduction in which either partner can act as the "female" or "male". For example, the great majority of tunicatespulmonate snails, opisthobranch snailsand slugs are hermaphrodites. Hermaphroditism is also found in some fish species and to a lesser degree in other vertebrates. Most plants are also hermaphrodites.
Historically, the term hermaphrodite has also been used to describe ambiguous genitalia and gonadal mosaicism in individuals of gonochoristic species, especially human beings. The word intersex has come into preferred usage for humans, since the word hermaphrodite is considered to be misleading and stigmatizing,[3][4] as well as "scientifically specious and clinically problematic".[5]
A rough estimate of the number of hermaphroditic animal species is 65,000.[6] Since the estimated total number of animal species is 8.6 million, the percentage of animal species that are hermaphroditic is about 0.7%. 

Wikipedia on human hermaphroditism:

Image result for hermaphrodite

Humans
Hermaphrodite is used in older literature to describe any person whose physical characteristics do not neatly fit male or female classifications, but the term has been replaced by intersex. Intersex describes a wide variety of combinations of what are considered male and female biology. Intersex biology may include, for example, ambiguous-looking external genitalia, karyotypes that include mixed XX and XY chromosome pairs (46XX/46XY, 46XX/47XXY or 45X/XY mosaic).
Clinically, medicine currently describes intersex people as having disorders of sex development, a term vigorously contested.[22][23] This is particularly because of a relationship between medical terminology and medical intervention.[24] Intersex civil society organizations, and many human rights institutions,[25][26] have criticized medical interventions designed to make intersex bodies more typically male or female.
Some people who are intersex, such as some of those with androgen insensitivity syndrome, outwardly appear completely female or male, frequently without realizing they are intersex. Other kinds of intersex conditions are identified immediately at birth because those with the condition have a sexual organ larger than a clitoris and smaller than a penis.

Fetuses before sexual differentiation are sometimes described as female by doctors explaining the process.[29] This is technically not true. Before this stage, humans are simply undifferentiated and possess a Müllerian duct, a Wolffian duct, and a genital tubercle.

Image result for hermaphrodite
Over the past 41 years I have ministered to a number of people who wanted/needed to undergo sex change.

"ROISIN" BELFAST -FROM MY NEWS OF THE WORLD COLUMN 1999


The priest in question had led a very lonely life having to keep this secret all to himself. In one parish he had even been accused of fathering a child - something that would have been physically and chemically impossible for him to do.
He got the courage to talk to me about his difficulty after reading about a private health issue of mine that had been made public.
The priest and I became friends. I arranged and accompanied him on a number of hospital appointments.
The hospitable arrange very specialized counselling for him.
He was offered surgery and decided not to proceed.
He is still in ministry and is in a much happier place. His bishop, fellow priests, family, and friends have no idea about his condition.


FATHER DENIS BRENNAN - MAYNOOTH 1964 WHO BECAME DENISE IN USA- PAT NEWS OF WORLD COLUMN 2000


THE VATICAN POSITION ON THE QUESTION:
Featured Image
POPE FRANCIS WITH SEX CHANGE MAN (RIGHT) AND HIS WIFE (LEFT)

VATICAN-TRANSSEXUALS
Jan-14-2003

Vatican says 'sex-change' operation
does not change person's gender
By John Norton Catholic News Service


VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- After years of study, the Vatican's doctrinal
congregation has sent church leaders a confidential document
concluding that "sex-change" procedures do not change a person's
gender in the eyes of the church.

Consequently, the document instructs bishops never to alter the sex
listed in parish baptismal records and says Catholics who have
undergone "sex-change" procedures are not eligible to marry, be
ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life, according to a
source familiar with the text.

The document was completed in 2000 and sent "sub secretum" (under
secrecy) to the papal representatives in each country to provide
guidance on a case-by-case basis to bishops. But when it became clear
that many bishops were still unaware of its existence, in 2002 the
congregation sent it to the presidents of bishops' conferences as
well.

"The key point is that the (transsexual) surgical operation is so
superficial and external that it does not change the personality. If
the person was male, he remains male. If she was female, she remains
female," said the source.

The Vatican text defines transsexualism as a psychic disorder of
those whose genetic makeup and physical characteristics are
unambiguously of one sex but who feel that they belong to the
opposite sex. In some cases, the urge is so strong that the person
undergoes a "sex-change" operation to acquire the opposite sex's
external sexual organs. The new organs have no reproductive
function.

The document's conclusions close one area of controversial
speculation that arose in Italy in the late 1980s when a priest
publicly announced he had undergone a "sex-change" operation.

Given church teaching that only males can be validly ordained
priests, the question posed in newspapers at the time was whether a
priest who undergoes a "sex-change" operation remains a priest --
the answer is "yes" -- and whether a woman who undergoes the
procedure can be ordained -- "no."





Image result for sex change surgery

PAT SAYS:


I believe that the experts in this field are those who have studied it from the scientific, medical and psychological aspects.

I think that the Church and clerics should be very slow to comment on these issues - especially in a harsh and judgemental way.

The human person is a vastly complicated creature - created by God - and only God can fully understand and appreciate the specialness of that person and the vastness of their makeup.

No one has a sex change lightly. They do so after many years of suffering and pain. 


For me the Christian response is to accompany each of these special people on their unique journey - through their initial confusion and pain, their decision making, their medical and psychological assessments and if required through their years of surgery and resettlement in life.

For me the MORAL ISSUES are the pain of the individual and our COMPASSIONATE response to them.

It is especially difficult when the person involved is a priest.

Whatever happens and whatever they do they retain their son-ship, daughter-ship of God and indeed their priesthood.

"BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD - THERE GO I".





96 comments:

  1. Joining up the dots, is this what Opus Die Phonsie cannot handle? I wonder.

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    Replies
    1. Poor Phonsie cannot handle anything that threatens to stretch his narrow view of life and his Council of Trent theology and ecclesiology.

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    2. What was wrong with Trent? Stop throwing out sound bites and back up your poorly framed arguments.

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    3. If there was nothing wrong with Trent, with its interesting Popes - Paul III (4 children), Julius III (15 y.o. monkey tamer cardinal bedfellow), Paul IV (adultery and fornication crimes punishable by death penalty) and Pius IV (3 children) Vatican I and II would not have happened.

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  2. First, compassion, and then (in swift succession) humility, must be the basis of our response to intersex people in the Church and, indeed, in the wider world. But not only must these be the basis of our response, they (especially humility) must also be the means by which we avoid dogmatism on a subject about which there remains much to learn and about which so much is easily misunderstood.

    Vatican guidance on the subject is dogmatic and, therefore, likely to be not only misinformed, but highly prejudicial and extremely harmful. It should be taken as seriously as its one-time teaching on planetary motion: the anti-Copernican view that the Earth was stationary, and that all other planets (including the Sun) revolved round it.

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    1. A little less dogmatism, a bit less prejudice, a lot more humility and a bit more compassion might also help you, Magna Carta. Just sayin' like ....

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    2. Oh, aye! Trust you to make this personal.

      (But you do have a point.😒)

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  3. This blog gets weirder every day!

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  4. A man who has his genitalia removed in the hope of becoming a woman is simply a mutilated male.

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    Replies
    1. Very ignorant comment by a very closed mind.

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    2. No its a valid argument. No other creature mutilates itself like a human. Totally unnatural.

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    3. No other creature has the freedom to do so. That's what makes all the difference.

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  5. I disagree. I find it more interesting every day. Where else do you get all these taboo subjects talked about so freely.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ... and sneer and parody the Catholic Church at the same time. A win-win situation.

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  6. I know a transgender vicar who is an accomplished author poet spiritual director and Parish Priesthood. God is neither male or female but we use the word he. In the Gospel Jesus tells us that in the resurrection people will be like Angeles neither male or female. There is allot more to humanity than narrow eyes can see

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    Replies
    1. Please Almighty FATHER, save me from self-serving snowflakes!

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    2. The Vatican's insistence on doctrinal certainty (a disinclination to leave 'loose ends' in its teaching) has often led it to overlook the nuances in life; the human sexual binary (the belief that there are only males and females) is but one of them.

      Categorizing people in this way, for moral guidance or any other reason, is simplistic and wrong; what's more it goes against hard science.

      Sexual biology is far more intricate than that suggested by the visible sex organs of the human body. Genes and hormones coursing through the bloodstream affect the development and manifestation of a person's 'biological sex'.

      Some women and men have three, not two, chromosomes (XXY); others have female sexual organs, but, on balance, more male sexual hormones than female ones.

      The Vatican's guidance categorically rejects even the theoretical possibility that the traditional, human sexual binary is in doubt. Given what biological and other science is revealing about human identity, this guidance is intellectually disingenuous and morally wrong.

      It can be only a source of great angst for those unfortunate enough not to fall into neat social categories of 'biological sex'.

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    3. MournemanMichael19 July 2017 at 11:33

      Thanks Magna for informative comment. I was trying to say something similar which 'vanished' on laptop (see my comments below). Now using phone.
      Like your earlier comments on dubious nature of Vatican pronouncements on sexuality given historical precedents....Galileo etc all.
      MMM

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    4. Your welcome, MMM.

      Am posting from my phone, too. Having trouble doing so. Feel like a total internet amateur.

      Prefer my tablet.

      Delete
    5. Crikey! I typed 'your' instead of 'you're'.

      Darned Grammar Police will be after me now.

      Going on the run!

      Delete
    6. "You're welcome" is correct (because it's "you are welcome") and "your welcome" is wrong (because your is a possessive).

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    7. It's a 'fair cop'. You caught me 'bang to rights'.

      Delete
  7. MourneManMichael19 July 2017 at 10:07

    Extremely frustrating Pat to spend time writing a comment to then find it vanishing/nothing happening/ etc when clicking 'publish'. Happens regularly. Anyone also having same problem?
    MMM

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Clear history usually works.

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    2. My post suddenly vanishing when about to publish and having to rewrite it from scratch? - - Yes, MMM, that has happened to me several times over the weeks. I presumed - but maybe wrongly--that my post was somehow co-inciding with the exact moment Pat was either adding to the blog or something technical like that?. It is SO frustrating when it happens!

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    3. You should write your comment(s) on Word first, then copy and paste to 'reply' or 'add comment'.

      Delete
  8. God be with the days when men were men and pansy was the name of a flower.

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    Replies
    1. Showing your age. Pansy is a derogatory term. Sonata strawberry is more PC nowadays.

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  9. There but for me having a well balanced normal upbringing go I.

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    Replies
    1. No amount of parenting will change how you feel about your gender.

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  10. 9.09 Ha The proper gent/gentess always carry ones humbrrella

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  11. Is that why they feel your testicles during the medical when you enter Seminary just to double check you are a man?

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    Replies
    1. 10.27 I often wonder why they felt testicles in many physical exams. Anyone know the medical reason

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    2. I don't think there was any medical reason, it is to prevent another Pope Joan type saga, making sure you were not a woman. The doctor that I had examine me spent too much time giving my balls a good feel, some fellas had longer examinations than others.

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    3. Sean, it's part of the test for a hernia.

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    4. Yes, it's for hernia testing and to discover the odd case of undescended testicle (which if undiscovered can cause health problem..)

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    5. Or testicular cancer. You should always check your swingers for unusual lumps and bumps. Or get one of your fellow seminarians to check.

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    6. "Or get one of your fellow seminarians to check.."
      Ha ha! You never know when you'll need a good neighbour down the Maynooth corridor.. This is priceless..!.. and there was him thinking you were knocking on his door just to borrow a biro..

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    7. Pope Joan? When?

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  12. Surely all trainees at Maynooth will now need to be examined by a doctor. They’ll have to expose themselves, of course, but clearly this will not be a problem for many of them.

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    Replies
    1. No. The rule is that they examine each other initially.

      The second examination is by one of the formation team.

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    2. ... and the third by their Bishop, presumably.

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    3. Those seminary entrants - and the doctor being paid to come in and check for missing items?
      Wouldn't it be handier and cheaper just to ask them to do a quick toilet visit - -plainly the ones who walked out leaving the toilet seat up would definitely be men! People always complicate things, don't they?

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    4. Ha ha! You've got it right, mate!

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  13. It's a whole different ball game nowadays.

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  14. Pat, when is that RTE programme on again - the one about the Waterford tranny priest?

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    Replies
    1. RTE ONE - Saturdays at 1.15 pm

      Sundays at 8.30 pm

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  15. "A nick here and a nick there and Bob's yer aunt"

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    Replies
    1. ... or in this case, Richard, presumably.

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  16. If Jesus was born from his mother without a father then he was genetically female. So God must have sex changed him. Jesus would still though have been a woman in a man's body. The Jews cast doubt even on whether Jesus really was Jewish in race in the gospel of John so something odd was going on and Jesus was keeping a lot of secrets.

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    1. The Jewish line goes through the maternal side...

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    2. You missed the point, 14:52. The initial comment in this thread was not about ancestral bloodline, but cellular chromosomal composition. Strictly (and theoretically) speaking, Jesus was chromosomally female, because, by Scripture, his conception involved only one human party.

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    3. The Angel Gabriel announced to Mary "Thou shalt have a SON..."

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    4. 12:44, you obviously were born a theological illiterate.

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    5. 16:04, '...a Son'?! I'm not so sure. Have you ever studied those twee pictures of the Holy Family? The ones in which the boy Jesus looks suspiciously feminine? As Anna (of 'Dear Mr God This is Anna' fame) declared of them, 'Jesus looks like a pansy'. (Er, her words, not mine.)

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  17. I asked earlier if Fr Richard was having a sex change?

    If so Phonsie cannot stop him.

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  18. Just counted the number of posts by Pat over past 2 days - and still many hours left for today - and I've counted 22! What person in any other walk of life can spend so much time creating mischief and engaging in nasty bitchiness and idle gossip? Only Pat in his makey up little temple with nothing useful to do! The rest of us live in the real world. Think it's time for Pat to free himself from his purple dress and get a real job!!

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  19. Someone left the doors of the hospital open today and let all the snowflakes head to an Internet cafe

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    1. I'd wittily retort, but my named nurse has just come through the doorway.

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    2. Magna, at 19.52, just wondering how you treat the nurse! Male or female or transgender! Tell us later the fun you had. You'll become more famous than Patsy...wouldn't that "sexcite" us all.....

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    3. 21:30, not the 'kiss and tell type'. Sorry.

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  20. 10.13
    Grow up , gender problems have nothing to do with upbringing
    Please come out of the dark ages and teach yourself about normal living

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    Replies
    1. Gender problems can arise out of a mixture of innate propensity AND /OR nurturing and upbringing environment. It is very complex, as a poster has already pointed out and it is each transgender person is unique with regard to what particular aspects of nurture-versus-nature apply to him or her. It is most definitely not a one size fits all situation. It is also true that everyone has aspects of each gender in his/her makeup and during childhood and especially in adolescence, different aspects vie with each other to come to the forefront.This leads the young person to try and sort out his innate preferences and feelings and see whether or not (s)he is comfortable in his own skin. But that too is not at all simple. It is complex and there will be influences coming in on the child - - eg parental approval being sought, peer pressure, peer example, bullying, examples of celebrity role models - -a need to rebel to prove a point, Subtle? Some of it won't be at subtle! But some influences will definitely be subtly adding to the pressures of choice and most likely adding to the confusion. To make matters more complicated, some adults become emotionally "stuck" in adolescent development and even though they have chalked up the years, they still see life as they did as a teenager and they may come to the conclusion that if only they had been born in a different body life's difficulties would disappear. Not so, in many cases.
      Please be aware that the various circumstances etc that I have described here apply to SOME people in one way and some in another.
      So do recall that I said it is NOT one size fits all. If the cap doesn't fit, then don't wear it!
      (I apologise for the long post but perhaps it might help someone understand these issues a little bit more)

      Delete
    2. Gender problems can arise out of a mixture of innate propensity AND /OR nurturing and upbringing environment. It is very complex, as a poster has already pointed out and it is each transgender person is unique with regard to what particular aspects of nurture-versus-nature apply to him or her. It is most definitely not a one size fits all situation. It is also true that everyone has aspects of each gender in his/her makeup and during childhood and especially in adolescence, different aspects vie with each other to come to the forefront.This leads the young person to try and sort out his innate preferences and feelings and see whether or not (s)he is comfortable in his own skin. But that too is not at all simple. It is complex and there will be influences coming in on the child - - eg parental approval being sought, peer pressure, peer example, bullying, examples of celebrity role models - -a need to rebel to prove a point, Subtle? Some of it won't be at subtle! But some influences will definitely be subtly adding to the pressures of choice and most likely adding to the confusion. To make matters more complicated, some adults become emotionally "stuck" in adolescent development and even though they have chalked up the years, they still see life as they did as a teenager and they may come to the conclusion that if only they had been born in a different body life's difficulties would disappear. Not so, in many cases.
      Please be aware that the various circumstances etc that I have described here apply to SOME people in one way and some in another.
      So do recall that I said it is NOT one size fits all. If the cap doesn't fit, then don't wear it!
      (I apologise for the long post but perhaps it might help someone understand these issues a little bit more)

      Delete
  21. I don't believe one word about Jesus being conceived without a man, and I'm a practicing Catholic
    I believe most of the stuff I was indoctrinated with was parables, just like Adam and eve and the apple
    Always wondered if it was a red or green one.
    I be
    I eve that wd all have to earn our crust , and that's what I did for 40 years.

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    Replies
    1. Well then, if you don't believe the doctrine of the Incarnation, you are a heretic.
      Nothing more to be said.

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    2. To 17:02. Do you say the Creed at Mass? Why, if you don't believe it or presumably much of the other dogmas of the Church? What about the renewal of baptismal vows at the Easter Vigil? Do you say "I do"?

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    3. Read Genesis 2-3 and you'll see there's no mention of any apple.

      You got even that wrong - and don't blame ur education and upbringing. The bible was there for you to read for yourself.

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  22. Can't believe what I'm reading today...this blog is shallow, uninspiring and grossly crass. It is amazing how Pat is so preoccupied by a strangely perverted interest in all matters of a sexual nature. Thank God I'm not one of your congregation. I'd be very concerned for your well being....It's a shame you can't say anything that uplifts the soul! There is so much more you could blog about to give us some nourishment and hope.

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  23. 15:32: I handle the Blog from my smartphone.

    I'm actually in a Meath hotel today and tomorrow meeting people about problems/issues in Meath diocese

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  24. That's none of your business to make trouble for Bishop Smyth. Disgruntled clerics and ex seminarians should find a more therapeutic and positive forum to sort out their issues. Giving them to you Pat is counter productivens & only ends in tears, bitchiness and ridicule. I still contend you have precious little to do with your time. Whether you are on your smartphone, lap top or ipad, you still spend an inordinate amount of time in negativity and trouble making! I wish I had your easy life.

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    1. Could Bishop Smith be one of the problems?

      People come to me when people on the inside don't listen to them.

      I can't say more as I am in a Navan Italian restaurant.

      Delete
  25. Buon Appatito Pat. Spaghetti ina navan What's the world coming to🍝 Mama Mia che suchesso

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  26. Any excuse for an Italian vino Pat! Who's paying the tab! Bishop Smyth....

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    Replies
    1. The small group who asked me to visit.

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  27. Doesn't matter where you eat Pat - you have all the time in thecworld to swirl around the country, so why not enjoy yourself along the way! But I must put my family first.....I'm perplexed why a group from Meath Diocese would entrust their cares unto your shoulders as you prove all too frequently to be untrustig with information which you then use against them.....

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    Replies
    1. If they did not trust me why invite me down here.

      I only "out" the real gangsters.

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  28. Prosecco is my fav wine
    Is it used at mass?

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  29. 20.02
    Whatever !!!!!
    Pat do u think I will be welcome in the next life?
    Not sure there is a hereafter either
    Does anyone really know?
    Christmas is 22 weeks away apparently?
    Is it really about the birth of Christ ?7...or decorations, Christmas dinner, presents
    Must be a lot of heretics around.

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  30. Being called a heretic this evening is a new description of me
    Hope it wasn't a man of the cloth that typed that.
    Sure didn't make my day.

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    Replies
    1. Only the best are called heretics.

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    2. 22:13, you were honest; no heresy in that. The so-called 'orthodox' would have you make a liar of yourself.

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  31. Solidarity fellow heretics! Here's some of my thoughts...
    Made in the image of God, Male and Female, I see within the unity, the wholeness of God, like an ac alternating current, God interchangeably male and female. Traditionally I believe, the "Let us create man in our own image is believed to be Father and Son talking, however, many other deities in the near east as elsewhere, had consorts, so it seems likely to me that at one time at least, Yaweh had a consort. In Hebrew, I understand, Ruah, spirit or holy wind is feminine, so perhaps this female aspect can be seen as the Holy Spirit, but as God, though three, is One, in tune with traditional catholic doctrine, each person is fully God. So God is love and love always seeks to communicate itself to a beloved and so the dynamic interaction of the feminine and masculine brings forth the Cosmic Christ, The Archetype, The Son, who is just as much The Daughter, that through Him/Her all things are made and in whom we have our being, time, the created world,male and female, though both containing aspects of the other. This sacred dynamic and interplay of opposites typified in so many ways. Heartbeat, inner/outer breaths, Hot/Cold, Light/Dark etc. Sin, that which divides this wholeness, comes into the world primordially when man sees himself as separate from the whole of creation, as the Ego / I and then seeks to exploit and hurt the creation for their own ends. Individual parts of the wholeness of creation, the mystical body of Christ, can polish their mirrors through love and devotion to the Wholeness, to God and to their fellow and all creation through loving devotion and service even unto death in standing up to malifiscence, that which would destroy by act of individual will, or narrow collective of those sharing the same evil (against live, or life) Those who polish their mirrors the most perfectly show the Divine clearly. They have been called Avatars, incarnations of God. They have the "Mind of Christ" or "Christ Consciousness." of The Cosmic Christ. They reveal to us our true identity, as members of The Mystical Body Of Christ, in whom we live and move and have our being, ultimately, One being in God. It is the perception that You are not me, that you are not God, that leads to people committing unspeakable horrors against each other. The Hindu's recognise that all are manifestations of God, by the greeting "Namaste" which means, "The God in me, acknowledges and worships the God in you, that in ultimate reality, we and God are One. I believe the historical Jesus to be an Avatar of God. To have the fully realised "Christ Consciousness" of the Son/Daughter of God of the Blessed Trinity. This awareness was strongly evident and growing throughout his childhood and his Baptism by John was his Great Amen to God's will, his sacramental initiation. At this point his mission to make known God's love for all and what Man must do to be reconciled with each other and therefore God. In service, even unto death, to love and protect and defend, without violence, his beloved creation. "To do as much to the least of these my brothers and sisters, is to do it to Me." So I am happy to say that the historical Jesus was 100% Divine & 100% Human, but am conscientiously driven to believe that so was Krishna and other Avatars. The rest of us through religious and spiritual practice, as is within our gift, through lives in the world or set apart, seek to polish our own mirrors and each others and to realise our heavenly home in The Mystical Body Of Christ, in The Godhead. "that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me."

    Ever Virgin / Virgin Birth conceived of The Holy Spirit / Natural birth Conceived of St. Joseph? Not a problem to me either way. Every birth is a miracle!

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    1. Thanks, Tom. You have much to teach.

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  32. Buckley you are an EVIL Cunt!

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    1. MourneManMichael20 July 2017 at 07:35

      "Surely obscenity is a matter of taste, .....and in the eye of the beholder?"
      Christopher Hitchens.
      MMM

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    2. 23.50 Pat you block comments that insult bloggers. Why do you let through comments like the above

      Delete
  33. Continued...

    I believe the bible is written by men and women in an attempt to understand who God is, who man is, and what's it all about. It is a collection of books and some of it not at all pleasant and edifying. Other parts are wonderful and truly liberating! So much so, that the RC Church along with the ruling classes attempted to keep it from being printed in the vernacular for so long during the middle ages. There are other works both ancient and modern and from other faiths that are equally edifying. The gnostic Gospel Of Thomas has a saying which would surely strike anyone involved with counselling, " If you bring forth that which is within you, that which is within you will save you." If you do not bring forth that which is within you, that which is within you will destroy you!" One is also reminded of the parable of the talents.

    "A Sacrament is an outward sign of inward grace." (I wouldn't want to put a definite limit of seven on what may in this respect be sacramental) As some people demonstrate the gift of healing without any outward initiation, does this signify an inward state of grace? Of course some might argue that people can heal by other powers and not in Jesus name. I would prefer given my earlier arguments about the intrinsic goodness of all creation as The Mystical Body Of Christ, that a healer is a healer and what makes a person bad is what comes from their heart, or, as Ghandi said, "The only devils in this world are those running around in our own hearts, and that is where all our battles should be fought." So if a state of grace can pre exist the outward sign, rituals enacted by a priest / bishop are not necessary, but certainly help actualise and manifest in the world the inner reality with an outward sign. Thus they bind us all together, with cords that cannot be broken! We shout Amen with Jesus to the fathers will!

    I do have a problem with the creeds when you place their exact words against what I have already outlined. I like +Pat's Creed.

    I'm not sure about heaven as a static end or goal. As I said, God is love and love always seeks to communicate itself. It is always moving or it is not love. I often wonder if the often terrible challenges here on earth that can bring out the most wonderful qualities in people, as it is said, "It's not that bad things happen, it's how we react to them," It is this suffering, the suffering sacrifice of the Cosmic Christ on the crux of existence, it is the rending open of his sacred heart in pure love which takes away the sin of the world, transforms it. So can we follow Christ by bearing each others burdens and if necessary, dying for each other, whether dying to selfish self interest, or in laying down our life for our friend. Re-incarnation, or just a continuation of "Now?" We know we will die, but do we find ourselves in another now, with either none or some or vague memories?? Or very clear impressions and memories. Reborn as a saint or Avatar? In Buddhism the Bodhisattvas or reincarnation of The Buddha, could remain in a state of enlightenment (ok, so perhaps a permanent timeless heaven??) they come back to help suffering humanity out of love and compassion, but risk becoming caught up in the cares of the ego and losing heaven / enlightenment, maybe to take many lifetimes to regain. I don't know..

    I'll leave the final word to the writer of:

    Romans 8:38-39English Standard Version (ESV)
    38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    (I am more certain about Hell. It is the absence or distance of God and goodness and can be seen and experienced all around, right in the here and now. I don't believe it as a final permanent place of punishment.)

    22:13 You made my day! :-)

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    1. Thanks, Tom. Appreciate your thoughts.

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  34. Yes (@poster 22.13),as Magna Carta says, you were honest and you told it as you see it.
    You have lost your faith and you didn't pretend otherwise.
    (The first poster who initially replied to you merely stated the situation as you described it without any comment of disapproval or influence.That was cemented by "There is no more to be said".)

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  35. Lots has been said since I posted about my non beliefs and very interesting
    Thanks Tom...a lot of thoughts to peruse.
    I'm quite certain that I'm not alone in my non beliefs, mostly I don't even bother to deep think about my religion. I was born into it...indoctrinated by nuns and more nuns and then more nuns.all in the name of education.
    Why did I never read the bible??? Yes I read the four gospels, maybe only 2 or 3 of them...a requirement to pass exams

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  36. MourneManMichael20 July 2017 at 10:10

    It's interesting to see some of the deep thinking contributors to Pat's blog examining the basis for the beliefs they were inculcated into in childhood. Some might rather say inveigled or indoctrinated. Do continue to question, but accept, unlike much of RC Thomistic inspired theological thinking, that there are no absolute answers.
    I've not made any secret of my humanist thinking, which is one of trying to understand our existence from the perspective of examining the evidence for what can be rationally understood, and avoiding 'plugging gaps' of what cannot be understood with comforting mythology derived from faith based ancient middle eastern writings whose veracity, authenticity and relevance even their supposed scholars can seldom agree about.
    MMM

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    1. Why would a humanist follow such a blog? Pat hates as he himself declares, the corruption of the Catholic Church and its abuses. I fully concur with that. It's nothing to do with the Catholic faith Bishop Pat Claims to belong to which is good and fine. Why would a humanist jump on the band wagon? Are you trying too much to make a point? Pat is far from being a humanist if my analysis is correct, stop using him and using his blog to make snide using humanist crap issues. It's called winding your neck in. When we see MMM it's yawn and your usual boring humanist shite. Is there not a humanist website around to air such crap?

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    2. MournemanMichael21 July 2017 at 22:38

      Thank you for an erudite comment which looks carefully at the issues. I'm grateful for your interest. I 'jumped off' the bandwagon you refer to about 50 years ago and yes, I do contribute elsewhere, but in respect of Pat's blogs enjoy how he encourages the sensible debate albeit regularly marred by the unthinking uninformed.
      MMM

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