Will Pan-Amazonian Synod Result in End of Clerical Celibacy?
Appointments announced today show the issue will be discussed and could result in wide-ranging and concrete changes.
The Vatican announced today that Pope Francis has appointed members of a pre-synodal council who will collaborate with the secretariat of the Synod of Bishops in preparation for the Pan-Amazonian synod next year.
Also announced was the theme of the October 2019 synod: Amazonia: new pathways for the Church and for an integral ecology.
Of particular, though not unexpected, interest are the appointments of Cardinal Claudio Hummes and retired Bishop Erwin Kräutler to the council. Both have advocated a change in discipline to allow married clergy in the Latin rite, and the Pan Amazonian synod is expected to provide a forum to at least discuss the matter.
Although some exceptions already exist to allow married priests in the Catholic Church (the Eastern rites and the Catholic Ordinariate for example), the Amazonian case could be used to allow for married clergy wherever priest shortages might exist, and therefore permit a far wider provision.
Bishop Kräutler, an Austrian who headed the Xingu diocese in Brazil from 1981-2015, has long argued for viri probati (ordination or married men of proven virtue) to make up for a shortage of priests in remote Amazonian regions.
A supporter of the ordination of women despite Pope Francis and his predecessors definitively ruling it out, Bishop Kräutler said in an interview last year that he thinks the Pan-Amazonian synod might consider the issue of viri probati, and disclosed that after meeting Pope Francis in 2014, the Holy Father had encouraged him to “courageously” explore the matter.
Francis reportedly wanted the issue discussed at the next synod this October, but the theme was voted down by the majority of members on the ordinary council of the Synod of Bishops, the body charged with drawing up the theme. Instead, they opted for a synod on “Young People, the Faith and the Discernment of Vocation.”
Cardinal Hummes, meanwhile, has made comments in the past advocating for a change in the discipline.
A friend of the Holy Father who gave him the inspiration to choose the name Francis, the Brazilian cardinal made headlines back in 2006 when he argued that “even though celibacy is part of Catholic history and culture, the Church could review this question, because celibacy is not a dogma but a disciplinary question.”
He made the comments shortly before taking up his position as prefect of the Congregation for Clergy, and was made to sign a statement supporting the discipline of clerical celibacy soon after arriving in Rome.
Whether any change to the discipline will actually happen remains speculative, but past statements along with today’s appointments makes it clear that a push for some change to the discipline is already going ahead.
In January, the current prefect of the Congregation for Clergy, Cardinal Beniamino Stella, said the idea of exceptionally ordaining older married men of proven virtue to celebrate the Eucharist in isolated Catholic communities should be discussed. He also brought up the issue at the Congregation’s plenary meeting last year, saying it was something the dicastery was “following.”
He also mentioned at the plenary a subject later discussed by the C9 Group of Cardinals last year, about transferring authorisations concerning the passage of a new marriage for a widowed permanent deacon, and requests for priestly ordination by widowed permanent deacons, from the Vatican to bishops’ conferences.
At the moment, without a good reason such as dependent children, a widowed permanent deacon cannot remarry and continue to serve as a deacon. Informed Vatican sources have told the Register that moving authorisation ultimately to bishops' conferences, especially concerning dispensation (from the impediment to remarry), would end up weakening the sacrament as cases could be handled faster, less rigorously and be affected by personal sentiment.
Some therefore see this as part of a “back-door” attempt to introduce changes to clerical celibacy. “It could further pave the way to a progressive degradation of such a requirement, and then for priests too,” said a source with detailed knowledge of the matter. “It's the building of a tendency, forcing people to become used to not cherishing such a requirement, to becoming less and less used to it, bit by bit.” The prohibition of a second marriage, he added, “dates back to the beginning of Christianity.”
Other indications of a push to change discipline in this area have included comments made by Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin. In 2013, he hinted that he would welcome such a change, saying it was a tradition not a dogma and so “open to discussion.” He went on to note that while the Church is not a democratic institution, it needs to “reflect the democratic spirit of the times and adopt a collegial way of governing.” More recently, he has underlined the importance of priestly celibacy while continuing to advocate for a possible change.
Last year in an interview in the German newspaper Die Zeit, Pope Francis said: “We have to study whether viri probati are a possibility. We then also need to determine which tasks they could take on, such as in remote communities, for example.”
Next year's synod will also address a wide variety of other topics including inculturation and abuse of the environment.
Here below is the full list of the pre-synodal council:
1. His Eminence Cardinal Cláudio HUMMES, O.F.M., archbishop emeritus of São Paulo (Brazil), President of the Red Eclesial Panamazónica.
2. His Eminence Cardinal Peter Kodwo Appiah TURKSON, prefect of the Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development.
3. His Eminence Cardinal Carlos AGUIAR RETES, archbishop of México (Mexico).
4. His Excellency Msgr. Pedro Ricardo BARRETO JIMENO, S.J., archbishop of Huancayo (Peru), Vice President of the Red Eclesial Panamazónica.
5. His Excellency Msgr. Paul Richard GALLAGHER, titular archbishop of Hodelm, Secretary for Relations with States.
6. His Excellency Msgr. Edmundo Ponciano VALENZUELA MELLID, archbishop of Asunción (Paraguay).
7. His Excellency Msgr. Roque PALOSCHI, archbishop of Porto Velho, Rondônia (Brazil).
8. His Excellency Msgr. Oscar Vicente OJEA, bishop of San Isidro, President of the Episcopal Conference (Argentina).
9. His Excellency Msgr. Neri José TONDELLO, bishop of Juína, Mato Grosso (Brazil).
10. His Excellency Msgr. Karel Martinus CHOENNIE, bishop of Paramaribo (Suriname).
11. His Excellency Msgr. Erwin KRÄUTLER, C.PP.S., prelate emeritus of Xingu, Parà (Brazil).
12. His Excellency Msgr. José Ángel DIVASSÓN CILVETI, S.D.B., formerly vicar apostolic of Puerto Ayacucho (Venezuela), titular bishop of Bamaccora.
13. His Excellency Msgr. Rafael COB GARCÍA, vicar apostolic of Puyo, titular bishop of Cerbali (Ecuador).
14. His Excellency Msgr. Eugenio COTER, vicar apostolic of Pando, titular bishop of Tibiuca (Bolivia).
15. His Excellency Msgr. Joaquín Humberto PINZÓN GÜIZA, I.M.C., vicar apostolic of Puerto Leguízamo-Solano, titular bishop of Ottocio (Colombia).
16. His Excellency Msgr. David MARTÍNEZ DE AGUIRRE GUINEA, O.P., vicar apostolic of Puerto Maldonado, titular bishop of Izirzada (Peru).
17. Rev. Sr. María Irene LOPES DOS SANTOS, S.C.M.S.T.B.G., delegate of the Confederación Latinoamericana y Caribeña de Religiosos y Religiosas (CLAR).
18. Mr. Mauricio LÓPEZ, executive secretary of REPAM (Ecuador).
PAY SAYS:
The question is not IF compulsory clerical celibacy will end but rather WHEN.
And it is very likely that the big push for the end of compulsory celibacy will indeed come from places like South America and Africa where celibacy is so counter-cultural.
On top of this, you have the issue of the huge shortage of priests in South America and the inroads being made into the Catholic population by Protestant evangelicals.
I do not know if the compulsory celibacy law was ever legitimate but it has certainly outlived its legitimacy in our time.
Now that law is a major cause of the shortage of priestly vocations not only in South America but also in the West and in places like Ireland.
I believe that optional celibacy - with priests being allowed to marry - would significantly increase the number of priests in Ireland.
It would also help to stop the priesthood's massive decline into a club of promiscuous homosexuals.
There may, of course, be practicalities to be sorted out - like paying priests a high enough salary to keep a wife and children.
But this can also be addressed by self-supporting married priests who have a "normal" job as well as being a priest.
Many married men who retire from work might be willing to offer themselves to the priesthood.
Optional celibacy is well on the way and will be helped along by this South American pope, Francis, and by many bishops from that part of the world.
I believe it is coming sooner than people think.
Also announced was the theme of the October 2019 synod: Amazonia: new pathways for the Church and for an integral ecology.
Of particular, though not unexpected, interest are the appointments of Cardinal Claudio Hummes and retired Bishop Erwin Kräutler to the council. Both have advocated a change in discipline to allow married clergy in the Latin rite, and the Pan Amazonian synod is expected to provide a forum to at least discuss the matter.
Although some exceptions already exist to allow married priests in the Catholic Church (the Eastern rites and the Catholic Ordinariate for example), the Amazonian case could be used to allow for married clergy wherever priest shortages might exist, and therefore permit a far wider provision.
Bishop Kräutler, an Austrian who headed the Xingu diocese in Brazil from 1981-2015, has long argued for viri probati (ordination or married men of proven virtue) to make up for a shortage of priests in remote Amazonian regions.
A supporter of the ordination of women despite Pope Francis and his predecessors definitively ruling it out, Bishop Kräutler said in an interview last year that he thinks the Pan-Amazonian synod might consider the issue of viri probati, and disclosed that after meeting Pope Francis in 2014, the Holy Father had encouraged him to “courageously” explore the matter.
Francis reportedly wanted the issue discussed at the next synod this October, but the theme was voted down by the majority of members on the ordinary council of the Synod of Bishops, the body charged with drawing up the theme. Instead, they opted for a synod on “Young People, the Faith and the Discernment of Vocation.”
Cardinal Hummes, meanwhile, has made comments in the past advocating for a change in the discipline.
A friend of the Holy Father who gave him the inspiration to choose the name Francis, the Brazilian cardinal made headlines back in 2006 when he argued that “even though celibacy is part of Catholic history and culture, the Church could review this question, because celibacy is not a dogma but a disciplinary question.”
He made the comments shortly before taking up his position as prefect of the Congregation for Clergy, and was made to sign a statement supporting the discipline of clerical celibacy soon after arriving in Rome.
Whether any change to the discipline will actually happen remains speculative, but past statements along with today’s appointments makes it clear that a push for some change to the discipline is already going ahead.
In January, the current prefect of the Congregation for Clergy, Cardinal Beniamino Stella, said the idea of exceptionally ordaining older married men of proven virtue to celebrate the Eucharist in isolated Catholic communities should be discussed. He also brought up the issue at the Congregation’s plenary meeting last year, saying it was something the dicastery was “following.”
He also mentioned at the plenary a subject later discussed by the C9 Group of Cardinals last year, about transferring authorisations concerning the passage of a new marriage for a widowed permanent deacon, and requests for priestly ordination by widowed permanent deacons, from the Vatican to bishops’ conferences.
At the moment, without a good reason such as dependent children, a widowed permanent deacon cannot remarry and continue to serve as a deacon. Informed Vatican sources have told the Register that moving authorisation ultimately to bishops' conferences, especially concerning dispensation (from the impediment to remarry), would end up weakening the sacrament as cases could be handled faster, less rigorously and be affected by personal sentiment.
Some therefore see this as part of a “back-door” attempt to introduce changes to clerical celibacy. “It could further pave the way to a progressive degradation of such a requirement, and then for priests too,” said a source with detailed knowledge of the matter. “It's the building of a tendency, forcing people to become used to not cherishing such a requirement, to becoming less and less used to it, bit by bit.” The prohibition of a second marriage, he added, “dates back to the beginning of Christianity.”
Other indications of a push to change discipline in this area have included comments made by Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin. In 2013, he hinted that he would welcome such a change, saying it was a tradition not a dogma and so “open to discussion.” He went on to note that while the Church is not a democratic institution, it needs to “reflect the democratic spirit of the times and adopt a collegial way of governing.” More recently, he has underlined the importance of priestly celibacy while continuing to advocate for a possible change.
Last year in an interview in the German newspaper Die Zeit, Pope Francis said: “We have to study whether viri probati are a possibility. We then also need to determine which tasks they could take on, such as in remote communities, for example.”
Next year's synod will also address a wide variety of other topics including inculturation and abuse of the environment.
Here below is the full list of the pre-synodal council:
1. His Eminence Cardinal Cláudio HUMMES, O.F.M., archbishop emeritus of São Paulo (Brazil), President of the Red Eclesial Panamazónica.
2. His Eminence Cardinal Peter Kodwo Appiah TURKSON, prefect of the Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development.
3. His Eminence Cardinal Carlos AGUIAR RETES, archbishop of México (Mexico).
4. His Excellency Msgr. Pedro Ricardo BARRETO JIMENO, S.J., archbishop of Huancayo (Peru), Vice President of the Red Eclesial Panamazónica.
5. His Excellency Msgr. Paul Richard GALLAGHER, titular archbishop of Hodelm, Secretary for Relations with States.
6. His Excellency Msgr. Edmundo Ponciano VALENZUELA MELLID, archbishop of Asunción (Paraguay).
7. His Excellency Msgr. Roque PALOSCHI, archbishop of Porto Velho, Rondônia (Brazil).
8. His Excellency Msgr. Oscar Vicente OJEA, bishop of San Isidro, President of the Episcopal Conference (Argentina).
9. His Excellency Msgr. Neri José TONDELLO, bishop of Juína, Mato Grosso (Brazil).
10. His Excellency Msgr. Karel Martinus CHOENNIE, bishop of Paramaribo (Suriname).
11. His Excellency Msgr. Erwin KRÄUTLER, C.PP.S., prelate emeritus of Xingu, Parà (Brazil).
12. His Excellency Msgr. José Ángel DIVASSÓN CILVETI, S.D.B., formerly vicar apostolic of Puerto Ayacucho (Venezuela), titular bishop of Bamaccora.
13. His Excellency Msgr. Rafael COB GARCÍA, vicar apostolic of Puyo, titular bishop of Cerbali (Ecuador).
14. His Excellency Msgr. Eugenio COTER, vicar apostolic of Pando, titular bishop of Tibiuca (Bolivia).
15. His Excellency Msgr. Joaquín Humberto PINZÓN GÜIZA, I.M.C., vicar apostolic of Puerto Leguízamo-Solano, titular bishop of Ottocio (Colombia).
16. His Excellency Msgr. David MARTÍNEZ DE AGUIRRE GUINEA, O.P., vicar apostolic of Puerto Maldonado, titular bishop of Izirzada (Peru).
17. Rev. Sr. María Irene LOPES DOS SANTOS, S.C.M.S.T.B.G., delegate of the Confederación Latinoamericana y Caribeña de Religiosos y Religiosas (CLAR).
18. Mr. Mauricio LÓPEZ, executive secretary of REPAM (Ecuador).
PAY SAYS:
The question is not IF compulsory clerical celibacy will end but rather WHEN.
And it is very likely that the big push for the end of compulsory celibacy will indeed come from places like South America and Africa where celibacy is so counter-cultural.
On top of this, you have the issue of the huge shortage of priests in South America and the inroads being made into the Catholic population by Protestant evangelicals.
I do not know if the compulsory celibacy law was ever legitimate but it has certainly outlived its legitimacy in our time.
Now that law is a major cause of the shortage of priestly vocations not only in South America but also in the West and in places like Ireland.
I believe that optional celibacy - with priests being allowed to marry - would significantly increase the number of priests in Ireland.
It would also help to stop the priesthood's massive decline into a club of promiscuous homosexuals.
There may, of course, be practicalities to be sorted out - like paying priests a high enough salary to keep a wife and children.
But this can also be addressed by self-supporting married priests who have a "normal" job as well as being a priest.
Many married men who retire from work might be willing to offer themselves to the priesthood.
Optional celibacy is well on the way and will be helped along by this South American pope, Francis, and by many bishops from that part of the world.
I believe it is coming sooner than people think.
Fr Brian Darcy could achieve his life-long dream of marrying a lovely lady.
ReplyDeleteWould the Real Brian please step forward!
DeleteAt 00:11 ROFL
DeleteEvery time he's interviewed he talks about his various engagement near-misses. The young women of Bellanaleck had poor Brian tortured with marriage proposals, even if it wasn't a leap year.
DeleteWho does Darcy the eejit think he’s kidding?
DeleteI don't think Gary Donegan CP will be at the head of the woman-marrying queue either.
DeleteHimself?
DeleteI'd love to see Fr Brian settle down with a helpmeet, especially in his 70th year.
DeleteBrian's successor in the Graan, Fr Charles Cross, has ended the homely, very country tradition of serving cups of tea to people in the pews, in front of the Tabernacle. He claimed it was on health and safety grounds, but Graan sources say it was really an attempt to recover some of the decorum lost during the reign of ladies' man Brian.
DeleteMerc-driving, hair-dyeing Darcy had the cheek to declare that God was "way off" if he didn't admit declared athiest Terry Wigan into Heaven. What a clown.
Deletehttps://m.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/terry-wogan-was-an-atheist-but-spiritual-says-father-brian-darcy-34411305.html
I think concelebrating every funeral in Clogher, with a nod and a wink to the families that he was the compassionate one, wore out Fr Brian CP, eventually.
DeleteWhat was he at, turning up uninvited and unannounced at virtually every funeral in Clogher?
DeleteWhy must married men as potential candidates for ordination be of 'proven virtue'? This isn't spoken of as a requirement for single men. So why just for married men?
ReplyDeleteThe truth is that Rome betrays what it really (and alaways has) thought of the married state: that it is morally inferior through sexual expression.
I think the assumption dates from previous ages where sex was less visible and 'taboo' sexual practices often unthinkable.
DeleteThe assumption was that a candidate for priesthood had arrived at man's estate without falling into the lure of the flesh. A married man obviously couldn't contain his passions so was suspicious.
Of course this reasoning was flawed bevause it would mean they accepted someone like, well, you without question lol.
'Sex less visible'? 'Taboo sexual practices often unthinkable'? You haven't read Paul, have you? Y'know: where he speaks of marriage as a moral safety valve for single people consumed with sexual passion? (Not to mention all of that stuff on homosexuality he sounded off on...or got off on..., etc. Frightening altogether.)
DeleteCan you see where this is going? Passion (sexual passion) isn't the preserve of the conjugally hitched; nor does it mysteriously appear once wed. Paul knew it; so did his contemporaries. But then successive, neurotic generations of Roman Catholics (including, and especially, that retired hedonist, Augustine) developed a very worrying outlook on sex, perhaps the product of their own moral guilt, and the Church has never looked back since. And proof of it lies in that repeated, silly Latin phrase, 'veri probati'. (Incidentally, why do Roman Catholic clerics believe that dressing up silly ideas in Latin phraseology somehow makes them less silly?)
Read Paul? Learned Latin?
DeleteAs a mere woman my milieu is of course in the womanly arts rather than these clever high falutin' things.
Plus of course any sexual urges I might have are merely snares to men.
I'm hoping to obtain a position as housekeeper to a priest when I'm old enough. To obtain the required unattractiveness I hung around my nephew's verruca and now have a magnificent wart on my nose.
Viri probati actually at 13:00.
Delete14:22 It worked in the West for at least 11 centuries. Among the popes of the first millennium are two sets of fathers and sons.
DeleteClerical celibacy was the norm in the Church from the beginning.
DeleteThe biggest fallacy and stupid notion is that ‘optional celibacy’ the heretical Anglican Communion has adoped is now being promoted by you - you have well and truly fell in that trap. The Anglicans have had optional celibacy for years and then they thought when that failed they would boost candidate numbers by ordaining females for many years also, that has failed too. So stop this silly notion by thinking optional celibacy will cure everything. You don’t seem to have much intelligence these days.
ReplyDelete02:36, How has optional celibacy within Anglicanism failed? Its purpose was never to boost the number of ordinands.
DeleteAnd how has female ordination within Anglicanism failed? Its purpose was never to boost the number of ordinands either.
As for heresy, Roman Catholicism has, for the greater part of its history, been teaching biblical heresy, since it has arbitrarily ignored one of the twin pillars of Jesus' teaching: indiscriminate love of neighbour.
Roman Catholicism has never truly lived up to its own teaching on the sacredness of every human life.
You too, Magna Carta, ignore that core teaching of Jesus of “indiscriminate love of neighbour”. You seem incapable of it.
Delete"The biggest fallacy and stupid notion is that ‘optional celibacy’ the heretical Anglican Communion has adopted is now being promoted by you" -- Perhaps it's escaped this contributor's notice that the Roman Church has not called Anglicans "heretical" since at least 1962. Moreover, the Anglicans did not "adopt optional celibacy" -- they began with it; they never had mandatory celibacy, except for dons in Oxford and Cambridge, who lost their jobs if they married.
DeleteWhether or not having married clergy and female clergy to boost numbers in the Anglican church, proponents in the Catholic church argue that married and female priests would solve the vocations crisis.
DeleteWell it hasn't worked for the Angicans or Methodists.
There is a voations crisis because there is a crisis of faith. And there is a crisis of faith because people do not know what to believe in.
DeleteDespite lofty ambitions towards evangelisation in the past thirty years within both Roman Catholicism and the Anglican Communion, people remain starved of their God-given right to know their redeemer. Why? Because the churches do not know him.
Shed the light, MC, do not put your light under a bushel. Set up your own church and preach the Truth.
Delete16:26, you're still stuck in spiritual infancy, still being weened rather than thriving on solid spiritual food. And the word 'preach' is what gives you away.
DeletePreach to the rafters; no one will listen. The Gospel cannot be preached, for at heart it is God himself. And God is beyond your preachy words.
Pitt you weren't around in Jesus's lifetime to correct Him. Mark 16:15
Deletehttp://biblehub.com/mark/16-15.htm
Let's hope so. What's the implications for those who left of it does happen
ReplyDeleteThose who wish should be invited back.
DeleteBut if they broke vows freely taken and had illicit sex and took their hand of the plough how are they men of "proven virtue/veri probati"?
Delete14:16, if they showed integrity by resigning from ministerial priesthood rather than attempt to rationalise and justify their breach of promise/vow, then I don't understand your reservation.
DeleteThose who are dispensed ('laicised') and subsequently marry with the Church's blessing are not breaking vows/promises. There's no reason why they couldn't return to ministry again if the Pope gave the go ahead.
Delete@07:46 Don't worry, they'll all be registered with Tinder by this time.
DeleteThey took their hand off the plough. Why should they be again entrusted with the Sacred Mysteries?
DeleteThey were dispensed usually after they broke their vows. And before any sophists say that diocesan priests don't take vows, I recall vividly handwriting and speaking aloud in the Senior Oratory in Maynooth my request to be admitted as a Candidate for Ordination as a deacon and priest (candidacy was the last stage before the diaconate) and I said "this I vow, this I say, this I promise", with the attendant obligations well understood by all.
DeletePride comes before a fall.
DeleteAgain a victim of autocorrect. The formula for the spoken declaration for candidacy, in front of the President of Maynooth, the Deans and virtually all the Maynooth seminarians was "This I vow, this I swear, this I promise".
Delete2.36 Nothing failed. It's called evolution.
ReplyDeleteYou have failed that's for sure. You are a failed RC Priest and now you want to be a Protestant Minister. What a joke you are.
DeleteI can’t see how this would improve vocations. Not in Ireland anyway. Most clerics are homosexual. Will they allow same sex married priests?
ReplyDeleteIt might attract heterosexual men to priesthood?
Deletehttps://media.giphy.com/media/VMgbHgz31i5oY/giphy.gif
Delete"Will they allow same sex married priests?" Probably not, at the moment, but as Pat has chronicled here again and again gay priests have taken the law into their own hands by concluding that celibacy is only a formal promise not to marry a women. (There have been many cases of priests secretly contracting marriage, though it's an excommunicable offence, and some cases of priests secretly or even openly contracting a same-sex marriage.) In general, it's hard to see why not. Pat himself has given a clear headline by his own same-sex marriage (or partnership).
DeleteOn the heterosexual men front, when I was in Rome a Sem at the Germanicum decided that he couldn't hack celibate priesthood so he left, got married and returned as a permanent deacon, which as we we all know, are as useful as a chocolate teapot. At least he was true to himself.
DeleteI doubt the ‘end of clerical celibacy’ will extend to single priests and seminarians, so we can still expect more skanky scandal associated with them.
ReplyDeleteWhat about religious priests ? How could they marry if they live in a community ? I can’t see this working It may work for new entrants but not for existing clerics. Church of Ireland have married clergy and they aren’t doing great on the vocations front. If you take their total number of ordained ministers you’ll see a good proportion are female. It isn’t the answer to the RCC problem. That’s a bigger problem that will never really be solved. The video posted yesterday with the Archbishop, Anne, Stephen and Christopher was very insightful.
ReplyDeleteWho are they, what's their full names, please. I need to network.
DeleteSounds like scandal not faith is getting centre stage
ReplyDeleteIt looks like Protestantism won in the end. No more Latin, clericabal celibacy, Communion under one kind, down with statues and make Catholic churches look like preaching houses, no auricular confession in practise, married clergy, bye-bye indulgences and relics, nuns set free, doctrine set at a national level, Mass is on a Crammed table. Those poor martyrs died in vain.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the martyrs deaths were in vain at all. Many in England & Wales still pray for its conversion. You are wrong to say communion under one kind, statues, mass on a crammed table. You clearly don't know any high Anglican churches who look and appear more Catholic than some Catholic churches including the incense and statues of our lady. Get your facts straight before posting false rubbish on here
DeleteSince when has Protestantism - in all its various forms, and for that matter Eastern Orthodoxy -practised communion under one kind. This is a purely Roman Catholic practice. As the Church of England - so maligned by the "My Church Right or Wrong" Catholic Taliban on this website states: "The Cup of the Lord is not to be denied to the lay-people: for both the parts of the Lord's Sacrament, by Christ's ordinance and commandment, ought to be ministered to all Christian men alike." It is Rome which disobeys Christ's command at the Last Supper, and like in so many other ways justifies its disobedience as "Tradition". Tradition my hat!
Delete@18:59 You are right to say that a few Anglican churches look and appear Catholic. Equally many or not most Catholic churches in my diocese look or appear Methodist or Presbyterian, thanks to the savage and costly reordering favoured by Joe Duffy and his in-house architect Richard Hurley RIP, who rode roughshod over GIRM, even in Maynooth.
DeleteP.S. on a visit I made to Fisher House, the Catholic chaplaincy in Cambridge, the then chaplain, Fr John Osman pointed towards the gas-powered yet convincing fireplace in the Great Chamber there.
He told me that the first time Cardinal Hume saw it he asked "is it real?", to which Fr Osman replied "no, it's Anglican. It looks real but it isn't".
Basil laughed.
Funny, 22:54, Anglicans say precisely the same about Roman Catholic fireplaces.
DeleteI doubt that. Catholics don't try to get the Anglican touch to validate ordinations though it happens the other way round, lol.
Delete19:06, you need to read it again, more slowly maybe. I said that the victory of the Reformation meant no more Latin, no more clerical celibacy, no more Communion under one kind. As you'll know these are among the key demands of the Protestant reformation, over which Catholic martyrs were hung, drawn and quartered. Auto correct changed Cranmer tables into crammed tables. My bad.
DeleteCompletely without proper research and no sense of the time line of the events during and after the Reformation... Nil points to @ 19.38
Delete19:38 Hanged. (Pictures are hung.)
DeleteI know that, 07:43, but that's the common parlance when the martyrs are discussed.
DeleteWhy did Trent specifically condemn these Protestant teachings then?
DeleteI’m surprised that no one has brought up the doings of a married Anglican Ordinariate priest in, I believe, Indiana.
ReplyDeleteThe whole sorry mess illustrates the Rome’s utter lack of experience with a married priesthood. The Orthodox and Anglicans have had many years of such experience but don’t seem to have the ideal down yet.
I do think that Rome needs to proceed with deliberate caution with respect to the marriage of her clergy. Perhaps the Anglican Ordinariate will not prove to be the Fraudinariate as a friend of blessed memory used to call it but will help Rome understand the exigencies of a married clergy. Maybe old Granpa Joe was more clever than we thought.
Seraphim+
Oh, I assure you: Rome will indeed proceed with 'deliberate caution with respect to marriage' , 'caution' here meaning 'procrastination' (a skill in which Rome is well practised).
DeleteDublin the largest diocese in Ireland has no candidates in seminary this academic year. I wonder why?
ReplyDeleteVatican II.
Delete18:08, you again?
DeleteCould it be because no candidates applied from Dublin this time? Had you considered that at all?
DeleteThat had not crossed my mind. Would you believe that. Perhaps they did have applicants and they were refused. The new director takes no nonsense. Enda wouldn’t have a gorgeous or a fat puck under his wings.
DeleteThe Dominicans are doing well. Maybe it’s the famous footballer got the ball rolling pardon the pun.
No, pretend Magna, you're confusing that poster with someone else. The first said 'Vatican I' hence II on posting again. Next will be Vatican III.
DeleteThe inevitability of being publicly humiliated on +Pat's blog must be off putting for many of the young Grindr guys.
Delete22:08 is right. They'll have to seek alternative careers as air stewards, male nurses or classical musicians.
DeleteNot all air stewards, male nurses or classical musicians are gay you narrow minded moron. Your generalisations ate petty, childish and from someone without any intelligence.
DeleteWhere did I say that all air stewards, male nurses and classical musicians are gay? A fair few are though?
DeleteWhat about Conor Gannon? Has he "cut"?
DeleteDon't forget hairdressers and barmen, 0033!
DeleteOr holiday reps!
Delete19.19. I hate your tired old clichés and stereotypes regarding what professions are most likely to have gay members Move on, man.. You're such a dinosaur.. By the way, the classical musicians who are my colleagues are as macho as you'd get and all married (to females... in case you still haven't caught up..)
DeleteThe said Dominicans have a few skeletons in the cupboard in their seminary in Dublin, where Fr Terry Crotty who made obnoxious statements at Mass about gay people lectures, also including one lecturer who fathered a child (before he entered) and another lecturer who is HIV+ from his actions in Rome.
DeleteFr Terence Crotty gave up a very lucrative career in dentistry to join the OPs so he deserves respect.
DeleteNon sequitur.
DeleteBizarre criteria for the deserving of respect. Smacks of chauvinism. And the children of farmers, artisans and the unemployed?
What he does and says will determine the respect he commands. A priest’s use of Holy Mass to work through his psychological issues surrounding same-sex attraction etc. is a clear abuse of the sacrament. If you are looking for grounds for respect, start there.
DeleteThe Vatican is an unholy kip. They charge for everything. There are many more holy places in Rome. I don’t know why anyone goes to see and pay into that dump.
ReplyDelete19.48: Stay in your backyard trailer. Your trashy comment is obviously from an uneducated person. The Vatican - incredible, amazing - art, culture, music, intrigue, history...How could you be such a phillistine!
DeleteHello +Pat,
ReplyDeleteJust want to say thank you for your transparency. You’ve always published my anon comments. I’ve been critical of many things. I’ve never resorted to being abusive or insulting or attacked a fellow poster but on a few occasions I’ve felt my comment wouldn’t be published.
Thank you for enabling proper clear and unbiased dialogue.
Peace be with you.