Friday, 28 October 2016

VATICAN ON CREMATION

Vatican: Don't Scatter Cremation Ashes, And Don't Keep Them At Home
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The Vatican has issued new guidelines recommending that the cremated remains of Catholics be buried in cemeteries, rather than scattered or kept at home.
"Following the most ancient Christian tradition, the Church insistently recommends that the bodies of the deceased be buried in cemeteries or other sacred places," state the guidelines released Tuesday by the Vatican.
The guidelines do not represent a change the church's overall policy on burial and cremation, but rather underline "the doctrinal and pastoral reasons for the preference of the burial of the remains of the faithful and to set out norms pertaining to the conservation of ashes in the case of cremation" in light of the increasing popularity of cremation in many countries, according to the introduction of the document.
Cremation has been steadily growing in popularity in the United States. According to the Cremation Association of North America, an industry group for cremation-related businesses, nearly half of all people who died in 2015 in the U.S. were cremated, up from about a quarter in 2000.
The newly articulated ash norms include not storing human cremains in the home and refraining from scattering ashes "in the air, on land, at sea or in some other way ... in order that every appearance of pantheism, naturalism or nihilism be avoided."
The creation of jewelry and other ash-containing mementos is also explicitly prohibited by the guidelines.
Since its founding, the Roman Catholic Church as an institution has always preferred burial to cremation. For periods, cremation was outlawed entirely. However, since the Second Vatican Council, the official position of the church has been that cremation, while not preferable, is also not banned.



The new recommendations reiterate that policy, quoting the church's canon law in stating: "The church continues to prefer the practice of burying the bodies of the deceased, because this shows a greater esteem towards the deceased. Nevertheless, cremation is not prohibited, 'unless it was chosen for reasons contrary to Christian doctrine.' "

Reasons contrary to Christian doctrine, the church says, include "a denial of Christian dogmas, the animosity of a secret society, or hatred of the Catholic religion and the Church."

PAT SAYS:


I do not like the TONE of this Vatican document. In the 21 st century the Church should not be using IT IS FORBIDDEN language on issues like this.

By all means let the church teach and preach its teachings on death, burial, cremation, the resurrection of the body etc.

But to issue ORDERS and INSTRUCTIONS to people is counterproductive. 

As a Christian I believe in heaven and the resurrection of the body. I have a personal preference for burial. I have already purchased a grave and even erected a headstone without my name on it.  It will save someone else doing it after I die. 

As Christians we do believe in the resurrection of the body. But will our resurrected bodies not be like Christ's resurrected body? His resurrected body could pass through walls etc but he was also able to eat with his disciples and appear to them in the form in which they perfectly recognised him.

If we believe that God is all powerful is he not capable of putting us back together from ashes in the sea - just as he is capable of putting us back together from the tummies of worms?

Is the Vatican not arguing about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

Heaven and the eternal life is a great mystery. Why should we try and quantify they mystery? Why should we be telling God what he can and cannot do?

There is also the very important point that cremation is a whole lot cheaper than burial. It is easier for poor families to afford a cremation. In Dublin a grave can cost you Euro 1,000. In London one can cost you £10,000 plus. 

Its okay for wealthy cardinals in Rome to pontificate from their marble halls with places reserved for them in marble tombs. 

Should we not be more interested in world hunger, drought, poverty, disease etc than we are in after death mysteries.

The Church should be more interested in the HERE AND NOW rather than in the HERE AFTER.

If your life is good now it will be good after.

A FEW MORE FLOWERS ON THE PATHWAY OF LIFE,

AND FEWER ON THE GRAVES AT THE END OF THE STRIFE

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47 comments:

  1. Am I reading the same Blog as yesterday? Yesterday your post ended with:

    "Meanwhile Maynooth Grinds on and rocks on - until the next big scandal breaks.

    And that - is just around the corner !"

    I was waiting for some substance to your claims from yesterday and today all I see are ashes!

    Is your big scandal just that - ashes?

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    1. Ashes? Ashes? Is that not what new life, resurrection come out of?

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  2. A sick sick bunch of idiots these clowns in the vatican who live like queens and princesses. The same ones who do not give a shit about the poor and who have a tantrum because a Mc Donalds is going to be built beside them. They really are out of touch with the real world.

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  3. Do you mind if I ask you Pat what was the state of your relationship with Archbishop Diarmuid Martin in your last contact with him? Why do you think he hasn't contacted you again to discuss actions he has taken on the various claims on your blog?

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    1. I think DM is doing his "politics".

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    2. Perhaps he was rubbed up the wrong way:-)

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  4. When people have no love they have no pastoral ability. The Vatican own us in both life and death, in their own eyes.

    7 months on and the local curate has yet to call to the house to either say thanks for the funeral stipend or to see if we're doing OK after a sudden and tragic death in our family. I'm happy to see the church has its priorities in order with regard to funeral arrangements.

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    1. Ah now that is not good. I'm always prompting our own priest to remember to go call in on so and so. He does it willingly but doesn't seem to think of it himself. He does a good job with the sick and housebound in fairness but not so much the bereaved.

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  5. He didn't call with me neither....he gone now...so I'm not bothered

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  6. So wrong of the Vatican
    So many cremations during this past 20 years and people's bodies scattered everywhere.
    Have they nothing else to be doing ......yawn

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  7. After telling us he rang you Pat, your off his radar..imo

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  8. Pat, I work in a bereavement support service here in London. About 80% of funerals here are cremation. Most of those end with the ashes being scattered in the Gardens of Remembrance at the crematorium. Many people are now getting little items of jewellery made with fragments of their loved ones ashes to keep close to them. It brings comfort and a sense of closeness to those who mourn. One of my groups has about 40 participants. Last night I mentioned this new ruling from the church and watched the reaction. Not one person there agreed with it. They are all Catholics, practising or not. The general feeling was it was practically unenforceable and as one old cockney girl said " Them bishops can go and get stuffed. They will anyway when they snuff it" was her last word.

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  9. I see the pope is in Sweden, a country where 1.6 percent of the population is Catholic. This was after his trips in 2016 to Georgia (0.8 percent Catholic), Azerbaijan (0.03 percent Catholic), Armenia (1 percent), and Greece (0.4 percent Catholic). Does the Irish congregation count for anything or is he too ashamed to come to Ireland considering the mess the Church is in. In 37 years, one visit. Before that, zero. With leadership like this, Catholicism will be dead in a generation in the west. I guess the Irish would have gone calvinist long ago if England and Scotland had remained Catholic at the Reformation.

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    2. 1 of 2

      Ah Calvinism, The Great "tulip" protestant sect.

      Calvinist theologians have sought to reformulate the TULIP acronym to more accurately reflect the Canons of Dort.

      The central assertion of these points is that God saves every person upon whom he has mercy, and that his efforts are not frustrated by the unrighteousness or inability of humans.

      "Total depravity," also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God, but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures (the term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as they could be). This doctrine is derived from Augustine's explanation of Original Sin. While the phrases "totally depraved" and "utterly perverse" were used by Calvin, what was meant was the inability to save oneself from sin rather than being absent of goodness. Phrases like "total depravity" cannot be found in the Canons of Dort, and the Canons as well as later Reformed orthodox theologians arguably offer a more moderate view of the nature of fallen humanity than Calvin.
      "Unconditional election" asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God

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    3. Great statistics. It made me laugh. Only its actually disgraceful. He's hiding out basically. Still, he's spreading the word. We are already 'in the bag'. It's all about the numbers....

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    4. 2 of 2

      "Limited atonement," also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all. Some Calvinists have summarized this as "The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect." All Calvinists would affirm that the blood of Christ was sufficient to pay for every single human being IF it were God's intention to save every single human being. But Calvinists are also quick to point out that Jesus did not spill a drop of blood in vain, and therefore, we can only be sure that His blood sufficed for those for whom it was intended, however many or few that may be. Some Calvinists also teach that the atonement accomplished certain benefits for all mankind, albeit, not their eternal salvation. The doctrine is driven by the Calvinistic concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and their understanding of the nature of the atonement.[citation needed] At the Synod of Dort, both sides agreed that the atonement of Christ's death was sufficient to pay for all sin and that it was only efficacious for some (it only actually saved some). The controversy centered on whether this limited efficacy was based on God's election (the view of the Synod and of later Reformed theologians) or on the choice of each person and God's foreknowledge of that choice
      "Irresistible grace," also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ." This is not to deny the fact that the Spirit's outward call (through the proclamation of the Gospel) can be, and often is, rejected by sinners; rather, it's that inward call which cannot be rejected.
      "Perseverance of the saints" (or perseverance of God with the saints) (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with, or if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit, they will be divinely chastened and will repent.

      Yeh I can see Roman Catholics going with that

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    5. Anonymous at 17:13, I hope the pope NEVER comes to Ireland! All the Grindrers will be out in their best frocks - mincing around the poor old Pope. The grinning goons of inept bishops of Gaynooth will be glad-handing and cheer-leading to beat Banagher. Nauseating! Stay in Rome, Pope Francis!

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    6. Calvinism is a doctrine of devils!

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  10. I wanted to bring up a Dublin Coddle in the Offertory Procession for my husbands funeral. The priest wouldn't allow it. I think it was very insensitive of him. Who is he to decide what I can or can't bring up to the altar as a remembrance of my husband. I love the idea of getting items of jewellery made of people when they die is very consoling. The church has no right to be telling people anything about anything. Grandmother Dublin

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    1. Too right Grandmother. I hadn't heard of this jewellery before but as a mother who lost a daughter I would have loved something like this. Personally I prefer burial but I have nothing against cremation and what does it matter. It's your soul and what happens to that that counts. Your mortal remains don't mean a thing to you, only those that mourn you. Incidentally Bishop Pat what does the precious Vatican have to say about organ donation? My daughter went on to save 3 lives after she lost her own. It had been her choice in life to do this.

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    2. Was the Coddle warm or cold. The smell of cold Dublin Coddle is stomach churning. I wouldn't blame your priest not allowing it if it was cold. You should never bring meat onto the altar anyway. Its an altar of Sacrifice not an ICA bring your own pot night.

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    3. Steady on 18.58. There's ways of saying things even though you made me snort coffee through my nose trying not to laugh.

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    4. You are very insensitive. Im still grieving for my late husband. It shouldn't matter if the Dublin Coddle was warm cold or frozen like your heart. If people can have their favourite songs played at the funeral or their football jersey brought up in the gifts, why couldn't i bring up my husbands favourite food. I couldn't play his favourite song since is was deaf and he never played football. The Vatican will next be saying that you can't put a can of guinness or a packet of cigarettes on the altar. who do that think they are. Its disgraceful, and your are a cold heartless person for saying that about cold food. Grandmother Dublin

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  11. A priest friend told me a while ago about this story he also told me that churches are being encouraged to make unused rooms or crypts ect into places where ashes can be stored . Families will have to pay a fee for so many years . This priest told me it was just another Vatican / bishop money making scam they don't give a toot about ashes but if they can make a pound out of it they will

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    1. MourneManMichael28 October 2016 at 19:56

      ...."if they can make a pound out of it, they will."
      ..........or a Euro, dollar, or any other cash available.
      'Nail on head' Anon @18:36
      As other posters have said: "Stop giving them money, (the parish collection plate, envelopes, stipends etc etc) It's the only thing most RC clergy take notice of: and certainly the episcopal hierarchy.
      The bullshit gymnastics of the RC church justifying this stance about burial of ashes in "sacred ground" is stomach churning. "Sacred ground" because some cleric has mumbo jumboed some prayers and sprinkled "Holy Water" over it! It's quasi voodoo-like.Such 'mystical practices' have no credibility and consist of merely duplicitous artiface designed to capitalise on people during their time of vulnerability and need.

      Think of the practice of ancient religions appeasing their gods during periods of famine through human blood sacrifices. Maybe so called civilisation hasn't moved too far forward!
      MMM

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  12. You can have your ashes placed in the crypt of the church of the three patrons in dublin. And they can be brought out for the anniversary. My neighbour had three urns of ashes on display for the anniversary mass of her husband and daughter. it was lovely with candles and flowers, Im not sure why there were three urns though since only two were dead. Although her husband was a big tall man

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    1. How much do they charge? I bet its not a free service, it should be. You shouldn't have to pay for anything if its in a church. EVERYTHING SHOULD BE FREE

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    2. I'm crying laughing....

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  13. There are times when you can be offered two for the price of one,of course ---

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  14. So tomoro we gonna be subjected to EXORCISM, Pat,
    Halloween And the 2 priests who do this in Ireland....lol

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  15. Why should it be free you idiot ?

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  16. Idiot
    Is not a word that is used in the 21st century.......please try to be politically correct
    Also Pat, I liked your interview video last week, listened to it all, you have good diction and liked your gag about you being so normal
    One thing though....you and others here bandie the word schizophrenia
    about and use it completely out of sinc
    Schizophrenia is a serious mental illness
    No one has this way of being only those who suffer from it.

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  17. Exactly MMM everything should be free in the church. Well said

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    1. Free! I think this is unrealistic. However there should be transparency as to how funds are used and money should not be a barrier. Charging for mass cards etc should be scrapped

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  18. Not that keen on cremation anyway as I read that where there are many cremations per day, ashes get mixed up and you could receive anything in the urn ..yuck
    Still the Vatican should creamate or bury and leave us to our own ways

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    1. I'm not a fan of cremation either apart from the scary side it can't be good for the environment. Woodland burials are becoming very popular. As far as I know the coffin must be wicker type or cardboard and a tree is planted on the grave and the idea is the body feeds the tree for years to come . Sounds much better than a dirty big headstone but each to their own

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  19. Am I not the quare boy this night sitting here on my big soft chair thinking that somebody has stolen my thunder about ashes. My point would have been that the next thing we will see is a wall with niches in the chapel grounds that can be rented for so much per annum, then if you want a plaque with the name of the deceased then that will be so much per letter. Capitals double price. Then to round off the deal a wee mass on the anniversary and for an extra £50 a mass on the birthday as well.That little value added bundle with the masses can be the churches usp ( unique selling point). That should keep the good Catholics away from using the local authority facilities.
    It's just another money making scheme. Probably proposed by US bishops who will have witnessed a colossal drop in revenues in church cemeteries as cremation has shot up from 20% of deaths to 50% in the last decade.
    Anyway they can just stick my ashes in an empty Black Bush bottle. In fact when I have a couple more halves out of this one I might just set it aside for that very purpose.

    Dalriada Dick

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  20. You really are a dick
    Going on about your boose
    Who cares if you drinking or not! Or what you drink
    Why don't you tell us about the walk you had on a beautiful October evening
    Sorry if you unable To walk
    Yes in Spain people buried in walls, it's how they do it
    I'm not enamoured by the graveyard Sunday, so I'm gonna give it a miss in future
    My husband had no time for frills...even Lourdes was a chance for the priests to have drink and sex


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  21. I checked with my friend in the three patrons church. They don't charge anything at all to place your loved ones urns ( they have to be in urns not in cardboard boxes holding a plastic bag of "cremains") held in the crypt. The crypt has the coffin of a lot of former parish priests, monsignors and cannon as well as two retired foreign bishops ( maybe they were mission bishops) anyway it costs nothing and you can have the urns brought up for the anniversary mass and you bring your own flowers. I think the sacristan organises the candles so you don't have to bring them. Its all lovely. I don't know the name of the parish priest but he is a friend of someone high up in the diocese. and is doing a great job in the parish.

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  22. So the Vatican says the faithful (or their ashes) must be buried on sacred ground...

    ...Unless you are a saint; if you are a saint than your body can be transported globally for display, placed in a glass altar, be rubbed up to turn random items into relics or even divided and sent to different places...

    It appears like a double standard, but the real standard is to decide how best to make cash from the body. Nothing more, nothing less. Saints are worth more dead than alive. Laity, once dead, are at least worth the price of an urn's plot - although this rises somewhat if renting the plot from a cute PP.

    Time to wake up and smell the...cash.

    CR

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    1. What you say is true. Poor St Oliver Plunkett's head is in Drogheda while part of his body is in Downside Abbey in England and tbe restin Germany

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  23. For many in UK cremation is an economic choice. As for items of jewelry containing ashes where's the harm. The church have been putting relics real and fake about for centuries. Resurrection of the body is not a scientific or chemical process

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  24. I don't like the idea of cremation. I prefer freeze drying. Its more environmentally friendly

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXE43icHzsc

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    1. I saw the freeze drying process on Facebook it seems to be much better than cremation far less goulish and with the same result . I can see it replacing cremation very soon

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  25. There are at it again
    https://m.fabguys.com/profile/cumsucker22

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  26. An Irish company is developing this technology.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN4bxwfQ3-k

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