Friday, 22 September 2017

FLAGS AT CATHOLIC FUNERALS

IRSP vow to ‘force’ flags into the Catholic Church

BELFAST NEWSLETTER





Coffin draped in INLA-linked starry plough flag in Dungiven, despite church rules The Irish Republican Socialist Party (IRSP) has said it will continue to “force” flags into the Catholic Church after the coffin of one of its members was brought inside a church draped in the starry plough. The grouping issued a statement following the funeral of their “comrade”, David Ward, in Dungiven parish church on Saturday.




 Mr Ward’s coffin was brought inside the church while draped in both the Irish tricolour and the starry plough, a symbol associated with the paramilitary group the INLA.




The Catholic Church, who in the 1980s imposed an ongoing ban on the use of flags and any paramilitary trappings at funerals, said the coffin was covered with a “white pall” for the funeral liturgy.

The IRSP, however, said in a statement on Monday night: “The flags of the republic will drape our members coffins when and where we see fit.” The IRSP said it forced the flags into the church on Saturday.

Their statement read: “The Catholic hierarchy refused to engage with the family in its time of need. Facing up to this arrogance, activist Ward’s family and comrades made sure his final wishes were adhered to.

His coffin was draped with the flags of the republic within the church.” The statement added: “Never again will the Irish Republican Socialist Movement be told what to do by a corrupt Catholic institution responsible for so much suffering on this Island.

 “The flags of the republic will drape our member's coffins when and where we see fit.”

East Londonderry SDLP MLA John Dallat described the statement as “abhorrent” He said: “The sanctity of the Catholic Church should be respected. The language from the IRSP says it all. “The language is so abhorrent that there is a temptation to ignore it because it is so out of touch but I do think that the priests and the congregation of Dungiven don’t need that kind of aggro. It is unfortunate that at this man’s passing they didn’t have more grace with the language that they used.” He continued: “When people are members of the church through choice, they should respect the rules of the church, which were made for very good reasons. It’s unfortunate that at this time that not only has that not been respected, the language that’s been used has been very hurtful to members of the church”.

DUP MP Gregory Campbell said it was up to the Catholic Church to ensure its rules on flags and paramilitary emblems are followed. “That statement is putting a marker down,” he said. “It would appear that they are putting it up to the Catholic Church, that in their words they have forcibly ensured that one of their members gets a funeral that they decide they want to have, irrespective of the wishes of the church and the institution into which he’s being buried.”

He added: “Whether it is the Catholic Church or any other institution, they shouldn’t allow themselves to be forced into doing something which is contrary to what they stand for.”




Dungiven Parish Priest Fr Seamus Kelly declined to give any comment when the News Letter contacted the parish office yesterday morning.

A spokesperson for the Catholic Church said: “By prior agreement with the family of the deceased, a large white pall (which is a large white cloth symbolising baptism) was placed over to completely cover the coffin. The two flags, which had been placed on it by the family, were completely covered by the pall throughout the funeral liturgy.”


PAT SAYS:


I think that the question of allowing flags on coffins should be decided - NOT by bishops and priests - but by the parishioners of a [parish or a diocese.

I think this because the Catholic Hierarchy and clergy have been two-faced on this issue.

For instance, Bishop Dickie McKeown of Derry allowed an Irish Tricolour on the coffin during the funeral of Sinn Fein man Martin Mc Guinness while other bishops and clergy have refused Tricolours on the coffins of other Irish Republicans.


Image result for martin mcguinness coffin
TRICOLOUR ON FUNERAL OF MARTIN MAGUINNESS IN LONG TOWER CHURCH, DERRY
If Martin McGuinness was allowed a Tricolour then EVERYBODY who wants the flag of their country on their coffin should be allowed one.

But of course, the Catholic Church is famous for having one rule for the rich, the famous and the powerful and another rule for the poor, unknown and the powerless.

In the USA most Catholic church sport the American flag and the Papal flag in the sanctuary.

However, I do think that the parishioners of a parish should decide these things. 

And there is a very good case to be made for the total separation of church and state.

And there would be another case to be made if the family of a deceased person wanted to put the flag of some illegal organisation on a coffin - or a flag that contradicts Catholic teaching.

For instance of a Catholic from Dungiven went and joined ISIS and got killed in combat for them would we not all be very uncomfortable for an ISIS flag on a coffin?

I imagine CONSISTENCY is important?

You cannot have one rule for one person or one family and another rule for another person or family.

FATHER SEAMUS KELLY:

I had cause some time ago to write to Bishop McKeown on behalf of a Derry lady parishioner who had a complaint to make about Father Kelly.

I received a meaningless reply from McKeown.

But then Father Kelly was moved from Draperstown to Dungiven.

The only other thing I know about Father Kelly is that he has, on at least one occasion, rebaptised Catholics, including himself, in the Jordan River in Israel.

In fact, I have a DVD of this event.




59 comments:

  1. As usual its all about position....

    All hypocrites,Bishop Pat

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  2. All around the world the only people whose coffins have flags on them are the military or those who purport to be the military, AFAIK. I've never heard of it happening with former nurses' coffins, for example.

    The issue here is that the IRSP is associated with the INLA, which like the IRA, considers themselves to be soldiers. They are in fact terrorists who appropriated the tricolour even though most Irish people rejected them.

    Issues came to a head when Bishop Daly banned all trappings after the IRA did a gunfire salute in the grounds of Long Tower church.

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    1. Lady Di had the Royal Standard on her coffin.

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  3. It's only illegal because the state says it's illegal and who controls the state but the rich and powerful? Considering the close link between the state, far-right paramilitaries and elements of the Church in Latin and South America, I'd be interested in finding out if during the seventies and eighties if their symbols were banned from the inside of churches at funerals. Looking at wikipedia, the Order of Christian funerals, points 38, 132, state that no flags should be part of the funeral inside the Church. However, the rich and powerful and the interests they represent, from example, seem as always to have special dispensation to behave otherwise.

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  4. ‘You cannot have one rule for one person... and another rule for another person.’

    Hypocrisy and double standards is pretty much normal for the Catholic church.

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    1. Apologies for my typo earlier there at 08:44. Of course I should have written, "Hypocrisy and double standards are pretty much normal..."

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  5. Flags and state in Church can be an emotive issue especially in N Ireland I imagine. It's easy to say keep church an state separate. What about King David or King Solomon. I suppose the bottom line is first of all give glory to God and all other things are negotiable

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    1. You know nothing much about N. Ireland. Do us a favour and keep your beak out.

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    2. My ever faithful follower again πŸ˜€ Kindly fek off like good little person go on go on sure ur awful so you are to be sure

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  6. Here we go again....Pat - the conscience of the nation. Always right and seeing to be better in light of other people's failings or "inconsistencies" - What would we do without you Pat and how more miserable your life would be if you couldn't find something or someone to complain about! Shame...

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    1. Oi! Do one! Bog off!

      No one's keeping you here.

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    2. A blog purpose is to express the thoughts and opinions of the blogger!

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    3. Magna Carta never bogs off when told to...

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    4. But then, I don't whine about this blog, do I?

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    5. Oh yes you do. We know who you are. Remember?

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    6. No, Pet. I don't whine ABOUT this blog; I whine IN it.

      This has gone over your head, hasn't it?

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    7. And micturate all over it. I ducked to avoid the stream.

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  7. Hi Pat. With regards to Bishop McKeown, I had an email back from him personally about an enquiry I made about the reduction in clergy serving our cathedral, just two full time priests now for a parish of over 11,000. He lamented the lack of priests, of course neglecting to mention Fr Brendan Collins vanishing and Fr Micheal McGavigan apparently still in the US on "studies", both who could serve the diocese if they kept their vows. Sending a priest away on "studies" when your diocese is crying out for clergy just is pure nonsense, don't you agree? The reply I got was the laity must do more. How is that possible, when Mass, Confession, Baptisms, Last Rites etc all have to be performed by an ordained priest (or deacon on some occasions). No response to that. The Derry Diocese is losing priests at a very fast rate, to retirement, death and "other reasons". Our neighbouring Raphoe Diocese however seems to be doing well, having plenty of clergy to serve their needs. Their cathedral in Letterkenny still has 3 full time priests and many living near it to serve 10,000 parish. I hate the emptiness of Bishop McKeown. All nice words and a lovely fake warm smile, but no action. I have been attending the Anglican church much more often now, as I can't tolerate the hypocrisy and laziness of McKeown's Catholic diocese. Am I wrong? Best regards to you Pat as always.

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    1. Raphoe has quantity not quality.

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  8. Let them flag away...who cares

    The body in the coffin is dead.

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  9. Firstly, I do not agree with the hypocrisy displayed by certain members of the clergy who allow certain things at funerals for some and not for others. The Catholic Church has its "Order of Christian Funerals" and if this were followed, things would be much more clear-cut.

    However, Pat, there is hypocrisy on both sides. The IRSP statement says the following:
    "Never again will the Irish Republican Socialist Movement be told what to do by a corrupt Catholic institution responsible for so much suffering on this Island".

    This begs the question - why on earth would anyone want a Catholic funeral if (i) this is their belief about the Catholic Church, and (ii) they have no intention of respecting the liturgy of the Catholic Church, but want to make it up themselves?

    If you don't like how the Catholic Church does funerals, then devise your own IRSP funeral rite where political statements can take centre stage. Indeed, perhaps it's time for the Catholic Church to refuse funerals for those whose interest is more about playing politics than in praying for the repose of the soul of the deceased.

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    1. Well, if Catholicism or Christianity belongs to the institution alone and the clergy who dominate it, then perhaps you would be right. However, if Catholicism, Christianity or any religion belongs equally to the layperson, then the IRSP make a very valid point. I'm not sure how Catholicism could survive if it followed your suggestion 'perhaps it's time for the Catholic Church to refuse funerals for those whose interest is more about playing politics than in praying'. I guess 90 percent of the bishops and cardinals would be instantly disqualified.

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    2. The anonymous critic, claiming to represent the IRSP does not represent me, nor does his criticism of the Catholic Church register with me. I have found the Church ALWAYS to be firmly behind its people.
      His language Is reminiscent of the crudest forms of anti-Catholic bigotry.
      As a life-long Nationalist I suggest that he, and I believe his very few like minded followers should arrange funerals
      directly from their homes directly to their place of burial.
      Politicise all you want at your graveside.

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    3. What does it mean to say that Catholicism belongs equally to the layperson? Surely if we are members of the Body of Christ, which is the Church, we are also members of the "institution", as you call it. We are not members when it suits and not members when it doesn't suit - "If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it" (1Cor.12:26).

      That surely does not mean that as individuals we can decide what the faith is - once we depart from the truths of the Catholic religion, we cease to be members of that religion and it can no longer be said that the religion belongs to us. Surely it is only insofar as we are faithful to the truths of the religion that we can claim any ownership over it.

      God has appointed us to different functions within the Body of Christ, as St. Paul says. That authority has been given to the pope and the college of bishops to teach and preserve the truths of the faith does not take one iota from my dignity as a member of that Body, because as a layman I have my own function and role in building the Kingdom of God.

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    4. "If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it" (1Cor.12:26). And if one person is buggered by a priest, we are all buggered.

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    5. 'The anonymous critic, claiming to represent the IRSP does not represent me, nor does his criticism of the Catholic Church register with me. I have found the Church ALWAYS to be firmly behind its people'. I didn't claim to be talking on behalf of the IRSP. Regarding your view of Irish history, I only wonder where the institutional Church was in 1690 when the Pope supported William of Orange and in 1798 when the Church supported the suppression of the United Irishmen and allies. And threatening to excommunicate Fenians. I also wonder how far the Church of Rome supported the people of Ireland when it gave carte blanche for an English invasion of Ireland in the twelfth century, describing them as savages and primitives in need of civilising by the English. The institutional Church has played a dirty game with the Irish people for centuries, ready in almost every case to do London's bidding.

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    6. 17:15
      You forgot about Adam and Eve - they started the whole thing

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    7. TouchΓ©, 18:10.

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  10. Can we hold funerals in your chapel Fr Buckley with flags? We know you've been more than good to families in Bellaghy, Clady and Portglenone. Just sayin

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    1. I am totally open to having funerals in accord with family wishes.

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    2. The IRSP are beyond arrogant. The INLA announced a ceasefire on the day of the Omagh Bomb. Why still insist on paramilitary trappings at a INLA nobody funeral?

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  11. And that's how it should be , Pat.
    I wd ignore any flag on a coffin.
    Now gunshots is a different matter...no way

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  12. Wouldn't mind a dip in the Jordan myself.
    Is it warm there?
    Where do these priests get all the money for travel ?
    I'm lucky if I get a few days here and there....after a lifetimes of hard work.

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    1. Where do priests get all this money for travel? From complaisant, priest-servile, Roman Catholic (mostly elderly) dupes.

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    2. Magna the viper at 13.31: I see you've crept from under your rock again to spew out your poison. What a lousy life you must live. The only bit of joy you get is to spread your horrible, darkness of mind at everyone on this blog. Go to AA for help.

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    3. Magna backfires again. I was a rep for JWT in Lourdes. There's a standard rate for all groups. After a pilgrim number threshold is raised a proportion of free places become available. In my experience there were typically 1-10 free places depending on the size of the pilgrimage. The group leader would get the first, reflecting the fact that they arranged the pilgrimage, were on duty during the day, on call at night, did a lot of form filling and were at work basically.

      Bitter people might argue that the free place was paid for by the other pilgrims. In fact it was the other way around.

      1. In secular holidays the company needed many reps because of the various issues and to sell excursions. In Lourdes apart from a bit of liaison I did with hotels the rest was handled by the priest/religious/layperson in charge.

      2. Even though the larger pilgrimages attracted a number of free places, as described above, in my experience pilgrimage leaders didn't give them out to cronies and relations but instead asked that the value be spread out across the pilgrim group and bring down the cost for all.

      Sorry to disappoint.

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    4. Please don't be sorry, cos you didn't disappoint.πŸ˜†

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    5. Maggie likes it when people rise to her 'comments'. She only makes them to rile and drive people away from this blog. That's why she posts such contradictory things - they're not her opinions, just to press buttons. I feel she's more sober this weekend. Why is that, Maggie, what do your owners have for you to do this weekend?

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    6. Whatever your limited imagination conjures up, dearie,πŸ˜†

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    7. I can imagine you stfu.

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  13. 10 .19
    If your life is miserable, please try and do something about it.
    Cheer up, it might never happen.

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    1. A stupid reply at 13.43 in reply to my commment at 10.19. I make the point that Pat will use any situation to make himself look more enlightened than those who belong to the True Catholic Church and are proud and respectful of its beautiful liturgies and solemn moments. Those who profess hatred and murder and who have zero tolerance of Catholic protocol should have humanist services where they can do and say what they like. Pat should at least encourage reverence and respect for Gid's house. This obviously is too much to ask of him!

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  14. Oh Pat, for cryin'out loud, what business is it of yous what the Catholic Church does or does not do at funerals or in any other situation. You are a de facto excommunicate of the said church. I suggest that you leave such matters to the competent authorities.
    We've had enough of your blatherin.

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    1. And who are these competent authorities ?
      Pat's blog...he can write about anything .
      You blather .

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    2. Thank you 14:29

      I can indeed write about anything I want- Catholic church, North Korea or 2 flies climbing up a wall :-)

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    3. 'Competent authorities'? COMPETENT?!!!!

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    4. Pat, I think Magna's having a stroke.

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    5. Did you say competent authorities? My God! The blinkers on this person who by the way does not reveal who they are on here, is truly amazing.

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    6. Made me ha ha, 15:46.πŸ˜„

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    7. Why is Fr Kelly dressed like a Presbyterian minister?

      Bishop Edward Daly of Derry diocese forbade his clergy from wearing other than the black.

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    8. Bishop Daly's theory, or so I've been told by priests of that diocese, is that lay Catholics coming across a clergyman so attired wouldn't approach him, even in need, because they would assume he was a minister. This is in the NI context in which virtually no ministers wear the black, unlike in England.

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    9. Hugh Connolly prefers a blue clerical shirt...

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  15. Question - is the River Jordan in Israel? I thought it was Palestine! Silly me - depends on the flag I suppose?

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  16. congratulations to Dr Clive Earls of Maynooth University on his promotion to head of the German Department (Great to be promoted after only two years at 28 years old and above all your colleagues).There may be trouble ahead. No, there will be trouble ahead.

    Prime Time investigates I hope your still dipping into this blog.

    RC_catholic

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    1. Hes going to love all the new first years on Grindr. maybe a seminarian or two.

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  17. "... you're still dipping.."

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  18. I'd be pretty certain that the deceased and the majority of the congregation at his Funeral would struggle to spell 'Catholic Church' never mind respect its rules.
    IRSP scumbags, go away and leave society to move on!

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  19. The delicious irony of the IRSP, the political wing of the INLA getting all hot and bothered about inflicting suffering.

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