The end of Catholic Ireland
Many Irish people have ditched the religion of their ancestors, but the generous impulses of faith live on
AUL COVER IT UP BRADY GETTING HIS RING KISSED BY A SUBSERVIENT NUN |
In the historic sense, Ireland's long love affair with the Catholic church was, as Ella Fitzgerald once sang, "too hot not to cool down". Catholicism was once so all-pervading in Irish life that it seemed a definition of Irishness: but now, according to a survey by the pollsters Red C, the Irish are losing their faith quicker than most: seven years ago, 69% of Irish people described themselves as "religious": this has now fallen more than 20 points to 47%.
Something had to give, and even before the clerical scandals broke into the public realm – in the 1990s – this intermingling of faith and fatherland was in decline. There was the effect of the 1960s. There was the effect of the pill, which, contrary to legend, was legal in Ireland. There was television. There was modernisation, which the Vatican advanced as aggiornamento. Around the time of Vatican II – 1962-65 – it could be said that in the hills of Connemara they spoke of little else.
But there were a lot of concerned parents, too, writing to the devotional magazines saying that they were in despair because they just couldn't get their offspring to pray: the family rosary was gone: their son (it was usually their son) wouldn't go to mass, no matter how much they beseeched. Gradually, you could see traditional Irish Catholicism unravelling. The votive lights placed under the picture of the Sacred Heart were disappearing in country B&Bs. My aunt, who had once felt miserably guilty for absent-mindedly taking a cup of Bovril on a meatless Friday, could relax.
Then there were heated national arguments about divorce – arguments as often about land as matrimony – and it took three referendums to introduce a divorce law. There were even more heated debates about abortion, and though faith is still a strong part of Irish values in this, there is a cultural element too: agricultural societies regarded infertility as failure, and "abortion" traditionally meant a cow had failed to calf.
And then in the 1990s and the 2000s the clerical scandals erupted, in which ghastly episodes of priests molesting and sometimes raping children and young people were brought to light. Richard Dawkins visited Dublin – and Listowel, in Co Kerry, for Writers' Week – and scolded the Irish for having God in their constitution; they took it on the chin, and bought his book The God Delusion at the double.
Among Dublin's smart set it seemed the kiss of social death to admit to being a practising Catholic: it's even vaguely unfashionable to be married, especially only once. Nonetheless, in the 2011 census, it emerged that 84% of the people of the Irish Republic described themselves as "Roman Catholic". The number of atheists and agnostics and diverse other faiths was up too, but Roman Catholics remained the majority.
However, it is evident, especially in Dublin, that nominal inscription to a religion is one thing, while actual practice is another. Red C's survey only confirms what is obvious anecdotally: that a substantial number of Irish people have ditched the religion of their ancestors because they think it no longer applies in an age of scientific rationality; because they rebuff "control" by ecclesiastics; because they are disgusted by the clerical scandals – indeed, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin is himself disgusted by what he has had to read in the archives; or because sex, drugs and accumulating electronic gadgets are more "relevant" to modern life than "God and Mary, His Mother", as the traditional greeting in the Irish language puts it.
And yes, the forename of "Mary", once so common that half the class at my convent school bore it, is now a highly unusual moniker among younger generations.
Yet I would distinguish between "religion" and "faith" in the Irish context. If the traditional structures of "religion" are weaker, there remains a strong deposit of "faith" among the people. Country pilgrimages still thrive. When there is a local tragedy – fishermen drowned at sea, teenagers killed in a bad road collision – the parish priest still speaks for the people, and organises the rites of passage. And solace.
I was in a church in a small Co Leitrim townland of 900 people not long ago when the priest thanked parishioners for helping out flood victims in Pakistan – they had put over €3,000 on the plate for the poor in Pakistan. If the structures of religion are weaker, some of the kind impulses of faith are still there.
PAT SAYS:
Many people will just have a "private" spirituality and do that alone. That works for many and is a very good thing.
But what of the rest of us who are totally disillusioned with the RC thing and still want to meet in community to worship, to pray and to be encouraged and inspired?
The answer may lie in Small Christian Communities meeting in each other's homes for Scripture reading, prayer, discussion, and Mass.
And would not that be a return to the early New Testament Church where exactly those things happened?
There could then be a confederation of these little communities to arrange bigger events etc.
Christ's Church started as a Small Christian Community (all Jews by the way) until it was hijacked by emperors and emperor popes.
Let us all try and shake these hijackers off and get back to Jesus' way!
BY THE WAY:
PAT SAYS:
I think Mary Kenny writes a very balanced piece above.
She is right that in Ireland "religion" is dying but there still remains a strong sense of "faith" or "spirituality" among many people.
There was a time when truly spiritual people got something out of going to Mass in a Catholic church.
That is now fading, for many reasons, as Mary Kenny has said.
One big reason is the amount of abuse, scandal, and corruption among bishops and priests.
Anybody with an open mind and a good conscience would see that the RC church is no longer fit for purpose and will, as an institution, continue to fade.
The question then is: "Where can spiritual people gather together to celebrate their spirituality in common and to receive a sense of community that such gatherings?
Many people will just have a "private" spirituality and do that alone. That works for many and is a very good thing.
But what of the rest of us who are totally disillusioned with the RC thing and still want to meet in community to worship, to pray and to be encouraged and inspired?
The answer may lie in Small Christian Communities meeting in each other's homes for Scripture reading, prayer, discussion, and Mass.
And would not that be a return to the early New Testament Church where exactly those things happened?
There could then be a confederation of these little communities to arrange bigger events etc.
Christ's Church started as a Small Christian Community (all Jews by the way) until it was hijacked by emperors and emperor popes.
Let us all try and shake these hijackers off and get back to Jesus' way!
BY THE WAY:
My attackers on here are always saying that there has been no great religious revolution coming out of Larne.
That's not what we do in Larne.
We are simply one of those Small Christian Communities that meet in a converted double garage every Sunday.
We don't need a Vatican, popes, cardinals, a curia, bishops palaces, arrogant clerics and all that goes with it.
Its all started in a stable.
What's wrong with continuing it in a garage, a sitting room or a kitchen?
When you cast off the YOKE OF ROME you arrive at THE FREEDOM OF THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD!
Watch for the nasty clerical comments coming now.
You see if we all did the Jesus thing, they would be all out of a job :-)
Mary Kenny: dear oul, sweet oul, Catholic oul Mary Kenny. If there is ANYone I utterly despise for cheerleading the institutional Roman Catholic Church in Ireland it's good oul, fuckin' oul, Mary Kenny.
ReplyDeleteYes, dear oul, loyal-oul Mary looks to secularism to explain the decline in confidence in institutuional Roman Catholicism. Well, dear oul, loyal oul Mary would, wouldn't she? Because this dear oul cretin can't face the truth about the institution she cheer-led for so many years.
Excuse me. I have to vomit. 😳
Too much drink does lead to vomiting. You should show more self control on your late night binges.
DeleteMagna at 03.04: How ignorant. But you've long since lost any self respect and for Pat to have printed your comment is to support your hatred, expressed so often on this blog. Your language is an incitement to hatred. Magna = a disreputable, drunken slob!
DeleteMags, did your vomit return down your throat last night? Seems like your "caca" got stuck! How can you face yourself today as you look in the mirror? Must be an ugly, horrible nightmare as a monster looks back at you! You are a mockery of human decency. You are a sleazeball in ugliness.
DeleteMad Magna at 03:04!!!!
DeletePolly: dear aul,sweet aul Apostate aul Polly. If there is anyone I utterly despise for constantly insulting The Holy Church it's bad aul,evil aul Polly.
Yes dear aul treacherous apostate,aul Polly can't think of anything evil enough to say about the institution she tried so hard to become part of. The bad aul cretin can't face the fact that she was turfed out, and the bitterness has turned her sour. still on the Gargle at 3am! no wonder she want's to vomit. Love and prayers B. Eviva Maria!
Cheers girls! 😆
DeleteJust ignore the harridan Carta. Mary Kenny could mop the floor with poisonous aul Mags but she’s too nice and decent a person. Unlike bastardo Carta.
DeleteAnyhoo, isn’t it hilarious that Carta’s afeard of Barking Bill? Must go back to their time in Gaynooth together. McMurky waters run deep ;-)
When Wild Bill Hiccup is on the rampage, Maggie scuttles back under her troll bridge.
Aul Mulv has some good uses it would seem Lol.
Mad Magna at 14:21
DeleteYou're welcome HONEY!
14:44, could she really 'mop the floor with me'? Well, she might have a chance, however slim, if she tried harder not to be misleading in what she wrote, or just downright inaccurrate.
DeleteFor instance, her description of Catholicism and Catholics in Ireland as a 'long love affair' has more than a grain of hyperbole. As a sociological reflection on older Irish society, it romanticises and misrepresents the nature of that 'affair': one largely shaped and maintained, not by high-blown notions of love, but by a massive power differential between clergy and laity. This was made possible by philosophical and sacramental distinctions between the two groups, which made the Church a religious (and, therefore, a social) hierarchy, with the laity firmly and deferentially at the bottom of the heap. This was a complete usurption of the servant model of ecclesial assembly ordered by Christ. Such dysfunctionality allowed (indeed tempted) priests and religious to exploit, manipulate, coerce, and dominate lay people entirely to self-advantage. We now know that many priests and religious did precisely this. It was a gross misuse of power (not of authority, since Jesus gave no one authority to dominate another), and it was founded on theologically judicial concepts of God, which literally instilled fear of him in the minds of ordinary Catholics and extraordinary reverence for priests as conduits of sacramental grace to appease the divine wrath.
As for Kenny's statement on the pill (that it was 'contrary to legend... legal in Ireland'), this is historically accurate, but intellectually is misleading. The pill was indeed legal in the Republic of Ireland, but only as a medical treatment (a 'cycle regulator'), not as a contraceptive. Kenny, oddly, left out this bit.
I seem to recall reading a piece by Kenny some years ago, in which she made a robust defence of priests (who, especially Jesuits, appear to have been an important part of her life while she was growing up) vis a vis the burgeoning sexual-abuse horrors in the Church. She made the 20th century the exclusive or primary locus of these evils, and the impression I formed was that, to Kenny, something other than the priestly personal, something other than the framework of the institutional Church was responsible for these betrayals. In other words, 'modernity and secularism', Mary's staple whipping boys for the criminality of the institutional Church.
I disagree that modernity and secularism were the twin foundational causes of the drift in liturgical practice or in membership of the Catholic Church in Ireland. Modernity and secularism are each just a side of one coin: social evolution. And human history is the story of this. But the evolutionary process was stymied for very many centuries by the unavailability of free and universal education, especially at third level. This (in the UK at least) only became a feature of society from the middle 20th century. In the Republic of Ireland free secondary education was available only from 1967. It was this social phenomenon, more than any other, that helped revolutionise the outlook of ordinary Catholics in Ireland: helped them to be more reflective, more critical of both social and ecclesial authority, and more assertive at its misuse.
Strangely, Kenny doesn't even afford a cameo role to education in her analysis.
Maggie, you old lush of a trout - as Joe Dolce once sang so melodiously - “Ah shaddap-a you face!…” lol
DeleteJoe who, 18:05?
DeleteI admit, despite my encyclopaedic knowledge, I had to look up that name. Found a video on YouTube of his singing that catchy song. It all appeared so, well, old, really. So yesterday.
You're old, too, aren't you? 😆
Oh you remember Joe perfectly well, you lying, drunken, toxic, filthy, old troll-op. It was only 1981. What’s wrong - sensitive about your age? Lol
Delete1981? Oh, I wasn't even a twinkle in my dear dad's eye then. 😆
DeleteMagna @1651 Thank you for that genuinely interesting comment. :-)
DeleteThanks, Tom. 👍
DeleteThe Church took on Imperial Roman structures and mirrored social hierarchies. Societies democratized: the Church did not. Vatican II emphasized the model of the people of God, but the reforms never happened, and today we have a more centralized authority than ever before, viz bishops are appointed by Rome with less local input than ever before when for example cathedral chapters would nominate. At the close of Vatican 2, 42 bishops signed the Catacomb Pact renouncing fancy titles and jewelry and the trappings of pomp and power. Others joined them, but what happened? Nothing. The Irish no longer doff their caps before Lord Antrim, so why the hell does anyone tolerate anywhere bishops in watered silk and golden rings? Those skull caps and sashes round big bellies kill me: thank you, my Lord. AND let’s resolve NEVER again to address a priest as Father. It is an absurd affectation and frankly creepy.
ReplyDelete07:54 You do make a good point and the element that leaps out of your analysis is spot on: the appointment of bishops centrally by the Vatican instead of their election locally. This is the nub of the issue. And it’s only a 20th century phenomenon.
DeleteWhere a bishop is appointed by Rome, say the recent designation of T. Deenihan to Mullingar, that bishop’s loyalty will be to those who put him in place.
When someone is elected to a job, for example, Kieran O’Reilly as general of SMA, his accountability will be to those who put him in place. Probably explains why he is so well got in Cashel & Emly today. It’s very good for the diocese to have someone like him.
It’s the single most important exercise of power to affect the church and the one most urgently in need of reform.
The first comment today, appropriately logged at 03:04 turns the blog into a glorified sleuce room where the incontinence pads and used bed pans of the contributor are additionally, put on public display before being disposed of.
Delete@09:14 - well the blog does have the word 'Catholicism' in the title so it's only to be expected people would think of the Roman version and except some caca. Just it isn't covered up here.
DeleteNow do an examination of conscience and focus on the good the church does - by providing custom to psychotherapists treating trauma.
Of course, the Catholic Church has also become the unacceptable face of poovery.
ReplyDeleteThat strange phenomenon within the clergy, who live double lives as pooftahs, but who are often stridently homophobic.
We have Bp Pat to thank for exposing some of these ghastly pulpit pooves.
There is no conflict in being a priest and being gay.
ReplyDeleteThere is a conflict between actively gay and presenting as a celibate.
There is a massive conflict in presenting as celibate, having sex like rabbits and visiting gay saunas.
There is an explosive conflict in turning a seminary like Maynooth, into a gay whore house.
09 28: A little bit self serving Pat. Every activity is fine once it conforms to your viewpoint. Secondly, can you explain why you printed that vile, hateful and reprehensible comment by Magna? It is sickening that he is using this blog to spill out his filth from a filthy, unclean heart. Mary Kenny, as you rightly point out makes some very interesting observations. Please Pat, spare us the poison from M. C.
DeleteActually it isn't really surprising that these people are both actively gay and homophobic. Even outside the church gays can end up internalising society's residual homophobia and so self-hating. Even more in the church(es). Self loathing combined with a requirement to behave publicly different from strong internal drives leads to compulsive, addiction-style sexual behavior.
DeletePat you put yourself in a position to come under attack, you put you're message out in a very disturbing and ignorant way.
DeleteThere's a more clean cut way to progress your message, things become stale and not interesting anymore, you've been flogging the same horse for too long now, a different approach may be more beneficial to you.
When you where a cleric in My parish of West Belfast the day's before you came out as Gay, where you having sex like rabbits?
No I was not. I was running to confession in Clonard Monastery to Fr. Luke Wadding confessing impure thoughts and impure actions with myself.
DeleteI have written A WHOLE BOOK on my sexuality - A Sexual Life - A Spiritual Life.
I am totally open about my sexuality.
Bp Pat, do you mean pulpit pooves and trainee pulpit pooves should be able to form relationships with other men and get married or enter civil partnerships? Or do you mean celibacy should be dropped just to attract more heterosexual men to enter the priesthood.
Delete@10:33
DeleteSounds like KOB's life story, but he took self-loathing to a whole new level.
Trite psychobabble.
ReplyDeleteBishop Pat, maybe the seminarians in Maynooth are modern day missionaries...the modern equivalent of Francis Xavier...cyber missionaries...evangelizing the guys on grindr on the quiet.
ReplyDeleteGoing where no missionary has gone before! Modern day trailblazers.
Ha ha 😅
DeleteAssociation(s) of autonomous self governing Basic Christian Communities associating based on what unites, namely love, rather than dogma, which divides, does seem an encouraging and exciting way to go. Of course difference can arise in the discernment of love in action and practice but this when approached in the freedom of the spirit can be an invitation to growth so I would imagine disassociation would be rare and only in the case of grave and unresolved issues. In anycase, fragmentation is but diversity viewed negatively. What unites us all as "Words Made Flesh" is our incarnate reality among and within "All That Is Seen And Unseen" Christ's mystic body! Our eternal heavenly home! As the psalmist say's "Where Can I Go From Your Spirit!?" No one is outside. There is no outside! Sunday greetings to the saints in Larne and to all.
ReplyDeleteYour comment, Tom, suggests to me a model of Christian living reminiscent of (but not identical to) that expressed by Francis of Assisi and his confreres. Am I right?
DeleteIt's a beautiful thought, but its appeal is to the heart rather than the head: it requires deep conversion to make any sense. Without this conversion, it can appear, at the level of reason alone, utterly repulsive.
There are far too many in the Roman Catholic Church who have found a very comfortable financial niche, all paid for by the laity, and these clerics will not come away from it without the opportunity for such conversion.
Fundamental reform in this church will NEVER occur until these bastardos know true poverty. The key to this is not some extraordinary syod of bishops in Rome (which has been called for), but the laity themselves. While they continue to fund these morally lazy and vile men, the impetus to reform will never occur.
St Francis' rule basically starts by pledging allegiance to the Pope and his successors
DeleteTrue, 19:04.
DeleteWhich is why I said '...a model of Christian living reminiscent of (but not identical to) that expressed by Francis of Assisi and his confreres'.
14:48 Hi MC. I was minded of the rich man and lazurus. I believe in re-incarnation and heard it recently mythologized Francis Of Assisi as the re-incarnation of the rich man! I love it!! As a believer that facts are not always true and that truth can also be found in legend and myth, truth being that which aligns you with the source of all, that is God. Needless to say I'm not so keen on the papal pledge bit but as another example, Thomas Beckitt, his spat with the king was I think over the churches right to try clerics? Perhaps we are dealing with the leftover of that presumption today, but leaving that aside, the myth of Beckitt is that of a yes man, plant of the king, who finds God and then confronts evil and is martyred to that end. Back to Francis, in the reincarnation senario one might think karma would have the errant rich man born poor but no, I think I'm right in saying that Francis Of assisi was born into a wealthy family, only unlike the rich man of the parable, this time he renounces his wealthy lifestyle and lives a life of service to the poor rather than ignoring or exploiting them. He realises The Kingdom Of God. The First Shall Be Last And The Last Shall Be First. I agree with you MC. I don't believe the established church will hear the cries of the poor and widows or realise where the teacher lives until they find themselves out in the darkness with much weeping and knashing of teeth and despite everything Lazurus will offer a drink.
DeleteTom, thank you for that thoughtful post. Christ! God has spoken through you. 'I don't believe the estsblished church will hear the cries of the poor and widows until...'.
DeletePlease, Tom, remain with this blog. You have so much to offer.
+Pat thats a lovely picture of the Oratory. You're on the ball re starting in the stable. If Jesus was to knock on the Holy (Gold) Door in the Vatican he would be dragged away by the Swiss Guard et al. He would not be welcome. I think that would not be the case if he he knocked on the door in Larne. I think he would be made feel very welcome and would indeed feel very much "at home".
ReplyDeleteDo we know why a particular girl is always surrounding Coddle at liturgical events? I saw her on the footage on RTE of the Papal Mass and now I see she is on the sanctuary in Lourdes. Is she a female priest or deacon? Is she paid and who is paying for her to travel to Lourdes? I see her at all "big" events especially from the Pro-Cathedral. We all know what Gorgeous go up too "down the Pro"...
13.04 It will be one from his large team assisting him.
Deletehttp://www.dublindiocese.ie/archdiocese-overview/diocesan-offices/
13.04: Haven't you got wonderful concerns! And what a crap comment. The Oratory is a house paid for by the Diocese of Down and Connor. Don't forget that. What business is it of yours who the lady in question is and who pays for her? All volunteers and helpers pay their own fare and accommodation to Lourdes. Fact. Yesterday, I had 4 callers to my presbytery - all homeless people. I didn't turn anyone away and Pat is not the only cleric who offers hospitality to the stranger. Grow up - do something useful in your life.
DeleteThe Oratory is a house owned by the Parish of Larne.
DeleteIt also has a Licensee for Life in it via Belfast High Court.
@ 17:04 - its Mr Wonderful himself.... Your tea and sympathy I am sure does a lot to tackle homelessness.
DeleteI have done something useful in my life. I carved out a professional career. Something you cannot say for yourself. You need the RCC to prop yourself up because you cannot do anything useful in the real "secular" world. Get a proper job if you are really Mr Wonderful. Stop fleecing the grey brigade. The problem with the RCC and their "clergy" is that you soon run out of other peoples money. You can say what you like about the Oratory in Larne but you Mr are a leech mooching off the faithful. When the money runs out as people run out of the pews you and your cohort will have to find something more useful to do or sign on the dole.
And it gives me a good laugh every time this subject comes up and a resentful person comments on it.
DeleteI also love the way you're Licensee, Pat, have one for yourself!
You sound very like wavering catholic
Delete18:43
DeleteIndeed.
A Licensee has a standing in law and a claim on residence.
In any event oul Daly landed them in it this way.
18.30: No need to go apoplectic in rage and insult. Incidentally I gave up a very professional career in education to take on the challenge of priesthood which I find to be much more fulfilling than my previous professional role. I appreciate the generosity of parishioners who value my commitment, care and service to them. If you reread your gossipy comment at 13.04, the only conclusion is that you have little concerns to ask so imbicilic and innocuous a question about who is the "lady" with Archbishop Martin in Lourdes. Are you by any chance sitting behind squinted windows?? And, do you think Pat lives off the leaves falling from the trees? Pat charges 300/400 sterling for performing illicit weddings! He too depends on his congregation to keep him financially. Interestingly my good and faithful congregation have given substantially more during the past few weeks. Get over your begrudgery, fool.
Delete18.30: Just wondering what professional career you carved out for yourself? You weren't a street trash cleaner, were you? Your ridiculous questions about the lady in Lourdes and your reference to Gorgeous suggest you are in the trailer teash genre!! You obviously hang around church porchways searching for clerical gossip. Very prefessional, indeed!!!
DeleteProfessional career in education? Look how well "teachers" served the Irish - Enda Kenny et al one of many failed teacher-politicians in the Oireachtas. It goes from bad to worse. I would have stayed in teaching if I were you. Another cohort who give little value for money to the tax payer. Sounds similar to the priest who gives value for money to their blind followers...
DeleteThe RCC is finished if you cant face that you are deluded. We dont want them or their canon law of oppression. Why do RCC priests always feed off the vulnerable?
Light a candle and say a prayer for me Father...
21.18: My professional career in education did not involve classroom teaching. Infinitely higher post than that! I will light not one but 3/4/5 candles for you. Is that enough?
DeleteSorry, Mary Kenny but the Church is and will remain, a relevant element in how people feel the innate need to express their Faith and their relationship with God and each other.Got that,Mary?
ReplyDeleteIn other words, if the Church didn't already exist people would feel the need and the pull towards inventing it!Have ever come across such tell-tale hints of this urge? - - e.g when you hear suggestions like "Why don't we all get together and form a small community... to worship together.. to support each other." etc etc
(Study anthropology to read how it has and is happening in so many cultures both civilised and less developed) So people swear they don't "need any Church" and the next thing they search out a tribe of their own kind and try and start one!
You don't need to, folks.. Jesus has already been and done that and got the tee shirt!
13:53, when (to use your words) 'people swear they don't "need any church"...' , they arent decrying the requirement for an assembly of like-minded people, a community of worship and of mutual support. But they most certainly are decrying the need for an institutional church that has raped and sodomised their children, engaged in financial and other corruption, lied, cheated, deceived, etc.
DeleteWhy would anyone feel the need for such evil in their lives?
Why do you?
Md Magna at 15:20
DeletePolly, there you go again with all your vitriol about The Church. It is not The Church who raped or sodomised anyone. It was evil treacherous men who did not follow it's teachings, this can happen in any community of worship when evil men infiltrate them. All you go on about is The Catholic Church as if these things don't happen anywhere else. You are wrong they happen in all denominations when evil men infiltrate so give us a break and and cease to weary us with your anti-catholic rhetoric. You are becoming such a bore. Love and prayers B. Eviva Maria!
And what about the men who covered up the criminal acts of these so-called infiltraters? The cover ups were systemic....world wide....for decades.
DeleteInfiltrators? The rare holy ones are the infiltrators in the criminal mafia operation!
DeleteBellarmine you really are in denial. As well as being madder than Magna Carta.
Excuuuuse me! I'm not mad, 18:41; I'm part of a noble tradition of lovable eccentrics.
DeleteA national treasure. 😆
Some treasures should be left buried...
DeleteAnonymous at 18:41
DeleteYou cretin, how dare you say my dear friend Polly is mad, I'll do the insults if you don't mind. I think you're an infiltrator in fact you maybe from the mafia yourself but in denial and quite quite MAD. Eviva Maria!
Very Christ like...insulting individuals by calling them mad because they hold a different view point. Then again Christ was also considered mad at the start of His public ministry!
DeleteMagna *is* off his head, I have no idea what he started off like, but his rage now makes him the sort of man you'd avoid in the pub to avoid a drunken harangue about something. At least he has the excuse of bad experience and possibly substance dependence. You on the other hand are far nastier, telling people they'll go to hell and bitching like the touchy old queen you so obviously are. The fact you have the cheek to sign your illogical ravings with the name of a Doctor of the Church is an insult to the Catholic faith, which you obviously don't really believe anyway. If you do claim to believe it, I make no apology but advise you to get a catechism, read it and shut up online until you have.
Delete19:05, and some should be on show to the nation, such is their (my) inherent value.
Delete(Just self-promotin', like. 😆)
Anonymous at 21:08
DeleteWhat a nasty bitchy auld Queen you are! I normally would not reply to anyone with mental health issues, but out of Christian Charity I must put you in your place.I make no apology for anything I have said all of it is in conformity with The Catholic Faith. Read what the Great St Robert said an did to heretics and apostates like Magna at the time of The Glorious Counter Reformation. I only quoted Scripture, I suggest you read it. Being a left wing liberal auld bitch that I sense you are, you have no idea of The Catholic Faith except the watered down version which suits you and your likes. I make no apology for defending the Holy Faith and I will continue to do so despite your illogical ravings so shut up until you know The Catholic Faith.
Where would the RC Church be today had Cardinal McCarrick been elected to the papacy in 2005? And what name might he have taken as Pope?
ReplyDeleteCharlie creepy the 1st.
DeleteJude!
Delete14.55: McCarrick may have considered the name Magna the 1st! Imagine the filth then, the "caca" in imitation of our great Magna Carta!
DeleteNow don't be silly, 15:28 and 15:38! Given McCarrick's denial of those allegations against him, wouldn't he naturally take the name Innocent?
DeletePope Innocent XIV. Tch! 's obvious. 😆
Maxi, Dick or Twink...
DeletePope Poof CCLXVII.
DeleteBut Magna...all the Popes over the last 50 years are innocents...there’s never been so many saints in the chair of St. Peter as in the last 60 plus years!
DeleteHow's your brewers droop MC?
Delete17:44, ha ha 😅
DeleteAnd never so many lies told about them. 😆
Of course the reason for the canonisation is obvious - pious tourism by the meek faithful is a great money spinner.
DeleteWhen you look at the finances the church's motives always become clear.
And this money-grubbing den of criminals and criminal protectors is allowed to function as a charity!
I don’t think it’s simply about money...more likely about politics, the public and the cover up of caca by so called clerical infiltrators!
DeletePaul VII or Francis.
ReplyDelete14:55 Nothing new under the sun. It’s said that Pietro Barbo (Pope Paul II - 1464-1471) died from coronary failure from too energetically copulating with another male.
ReplyDeleteSo what really happened to John Paul the 1st. His papacy was only a number of weeks. Was not McGhee of Cloyne his secretary. What was the verdict on his death.
ReplyDeleteHave you not heard about Google.
DeletePope jp1 died from natural causes,he had heart failure and his med records were not brought to rome in time for his docs to look after him, Magee should have kepted a close eye on him the night he died as he went to bed not feeling well,instead spent the night chatting with nuns about the shortest reiging popes in history,hapless sums up magee
DeleteYep.. Have heard of it.
DeleteIt was one of those early search engines that people used to use to look up info in the olden days. My grandma still uses it on her old desk gear..
There’s nothing new under the sun but the Church of the 15th century didn’t have modern communications.
ReplyDeleteIgnorance was bliss!
Meanwhile in Westminster - No show at Mass today from Fr Montgomery in Welwyn
ReplyDeleteProbably lying sozzled somewhere.
DeleteOf course he wasn't in Welwyn today as he's in Liverpool with his PP and a group of parishioners.
DeleteI see, so with both the PP and the curate in Liverpool, who’s taking care of the people in God in Welwyn Garden City this weekend? it’s nice that, unlike every other diocese, Westminster has such a surplus of priests that Vin can provide not only assistant priests, whereas lesser dioceses these days have one priest responsible for several parishes, but cover for when they are both away at the same time. What’s Tom doing in Westminster anyway? Doesn’t he hail from Glasgow? Don’t tell me, the Anglican Franciscans again. Anyway good news for the bars, clubs and offies in Liverpool, which have filled their coffers this weekend.
DeleteWelwyn people paying for the porker's return travel to Liverpool. 3 nights accommodation there plus God knows the amounts of food and booze consumed. On top of that the cost of paying a priest to cover in his absence. Anyone like to guess the cost? All together now for the parishioners of Welwyn - BAAAAAAAAAAAAA
DeleteHarry Turner supplied.
DeleteEach time Tom Montgomery returned to the Beda after Ordination for free accommodation some of the other Sems always had booze waiting for him. He knows when he is on to a good thing. He would gloat about the number of G&T's he managed to sweet talk the BA cabin crew into giving him on his flight.
DeletePity the porker’s Twitter a/c is down until he judges the coast is clear again. It would have been edifying to have his pious thoughts on the wonderful spirit-filled experience he had in Liverpool.
Delete@18.13 Bang on! The Anglican Franciscans have a lot to answer for in this regard.
DeleteBA of course. Which parish footed the bill? No easyjet or Ryanair for the clergy.
Delete@19.17 There would have been pious thoughts galore. Just like the twitter photo taken of himself in a Confessional telling us what a wonderful privilege it is as a Priest to hear Confessions.
DeleteHow often does he get free accommodation at the Beda?
DeleteAs an ex Beda Seminarian he can get lodgings free there whenever he wants. He doesn't believe in parting with his money easily.
DeleteI think this nasty bog should lay off the bullying of Fr Tom Montgomery. I was told earlier that he doesn't drink alcohol and hasn't for sometime now.
DeleteAny thoughts, anyone, on Vinny's showy mea culpa at that grand catwalk for the clergy?
Delete(Just wonderin', like. 😆)
You're talking out your arse. Former Beda students only get one free week.
DeleteWell perhaps you can furnish us with the ones who did stay one week - there's a list of those who have stayed on several occasions. Whose talking put of their ass now? Good to see, by the way, the ex Beda brethren reading the blog.
DeleteBp Pat, out of interest, has anyone at all denied yet the existence of the secret report sent to you about Montitty?
DeleteOh really @21:51 since when has Father T. been off the sauce? One of his parishioners in Welwyn told us only the other day that Tom liked a drink. Understatement I should coco.
Delete22:28
DeleteNo one has been in touch to deny or attempt to deny the validity of the private report into Montgomery.
@22.29 No truth in that fiction that he is 'off the sauce'. I think it's an attempt to throw us of the scent.
Delete22:26 Just because they stay there doesn't mean it's free. So how often does Montgomery stay there. If you've seen the list then you can tell us!
DeleteOi! Is there no one on that side of the Irish Sea with a comment on Vinny's showy mea culpa?
DeleteGood grief! 😕
22.26 You are the Oracle on the Beda - you tell us. Your info hasn't been that accurate thus far! Maybe you can tell us what job they gave Monti at the Beda in his final year there?
DeleteWhy not send Montgomery a copy of the report to see if he'll verify it?
DeleteMaybe one of those lads in Maynooth seminary is destined to become the patron saint of cyberspace.
ReplyDeleteRe earlier speculation about who might succeed Nichols at Westminster, there is no way he would allow Dark Mavis anyway near further promotion. His appointment to Shrewsbury was only because CMOC, in his own words, “took his eye off the ball” - no wonder Rod Strange hit the bottle for a few days. Surely Longley of Birmingham is the obvious if not the only choice. A nice man, who having been an auxiliary there, at least knows what a snake-pit awaits him. Anyone know how he and Nichols get on - or not?
ReplyDeleteBunny Longley will not get Westminster. Not as long as Nichols has anything to do with it. Hasn't been very effective in Birmingham and may have a skeleton in his past Westminster closet.
DeleteOh no! Shows how out of touch and what an innocent I am. Never heard Bunny - I thought he answered to Nursie or Norah. I somehow suspected Vin had it in for him. Whatever happens, please don’t let Cockroach get Southwark or any other diocese after his years doing an absolutely useless non-job in Rome. I rather liked old Smithy - surely no skeletons in his closet?
Delete@18:36
DeleteA male skeleton, presumably.
@18.53 CMOC said at the time he missed his flight to Rome when the Congregation for Bishops, of which he was a member, decided to appoint Dark Mavis.
DeleteWas CMOC's flight from Gatwick, where he sent an abuser priest to be its chaplain. Imagine a man like CMOC appointing bishops and campaigning for Francis. He was shameless.
Delete18.20 Archbishop Longley is a Good Priest but very slow to act in Birmingham and he will be about 65 then.
DeleteDepends who gets Southwark any time after October hat will be interesting really Paul Hendricks should get his own diocese if not Southwark.
Arthur Roche it seems wants out of Rome and into a Diocese so till will tell.
I don’t wish ill will on Pope Francis and I do think he inherited a mountain of problems and needs our prayers regardless of what we think of him....however the institutional Rc Church is in flux and changing in plain sight not just in Ireland but world wide. The next papal election is likely to be a marathon with the college of Cardinals having to compare and contrast the potential candidates skeletons of caca in closets. McCarrick illustrates the rot goes to the top...sadly.
ReplyDeleteThe College of Cardinals should be expanded to include at least an equal number of representative lay people.
DeleteOnce a short-list of candidates is drawn up, an experienced lawyer, independent of the Catholic Church, should be permitted a prosecutorial role (a sort of Devil's Advocate) to weed out unsuitable candidates, like McCarrick. Of course, there must also be permitted a defence of each candidate.
Once the College has chosen a successor, this person's candidacy must be put to a wider vote among Catholics worldwide. This is where social media would come into its own.
Whaddya think, boys and girls? Is clever Magna on to something?😆
You’re on to something Maga...but to quote Del Trotter from Only Fools and Horses....’not on your nellie ‘.
Delete19:06, 😳
DeleteMad Magna at 18:43
DeleteOf course you're not on to something you cretin. But I'll bet you're on something! what it is we can only imagine. Anyway MYOB you are neither clever or even a Catholic so we don't want any of your mad ideas. Love and prayers B. Eviva Maria!
What’s so mad about allowing the People of God having a voice in the election of a Pope?
DeleteTo posit the notion that clerical child sexual abuse and clerical caca is due to infiltrators in the Church is indicative of paranoid ideation and suggests psychological projection of latent psychopathology! Logs and splinters comes to mind Mr. Bellarmine
DeleteI was on the Pro Cathedral website and I notice that they have the ordination mass of Robert Symth password protected. I wonder why? Was this not a public ceremony paid for by the parishioners?
ReplyDeleteOn a separate note I see Fr Robert Smyth is in Lourdes with Coddle - sitting there like a stuffed turkey - probably not living on coddles alone....
Maybe Kieran McDermott the ADM is camera shy? Maybe there is no one Gorgeous enough to have a broadcast?
DeleteRobert (in Maynooth) was not shy to a knife and fork. He loved his food.
A quick question for my Scottish friends. Why haven’t the names of the Clergy who were having sex with KOB not released. I believe that one is retired, one has taken time off and another is still beavering away. Gilhooley is also still allowed to practice in Switzerland. None of them are young Priests, so why are they being protected for bringing him down and why are they allowed double standards?
ReplyDelete1917. It’s been reported on here before that it was a big fall out about one of the pooftas not getting a Mitre so they all turned against him. You are right that they are all guilty of double standards. All of them have been sexually active for the majority of their Priesthood and are as even more guilty than Keith for what they did. they cannot be punished as they have lots of shect on too many people. It will be 20 years plus until the Scottish Church starts to recover.
DeleteYou won't get any names so it's pointless asking.
DeleteI already know all the names but perhaps Pat won’t be able to publish them on here
DeleteHas some civil court ordered non publication or is it just church and journalistic arrangements.
DeleteIf there is no court order I would publish them here.
The main thing is, they brought him down. He was out of control.
DeleteI knew it, I knew the names wouldn't be forthcoming!! More shite talk and shite empty promises from the usual time wasters.
DeleteThe old hag at Catholic Truth Scotland did piece entitled: "Scandal in Scotland - Joining up the Dots - Anonymity, Cowardice & Credibility" in its May 2013 newsletter, page 7, that is supposed identify he pulpit pooves responsible for his spectacular downfall... along with the Church in Scotland.
Deletefile:///C:/Users/David/AppData/Local/Temp/Temp1_CT%20Archive%20(1).zip/MAYnewsletter13.pdf
@21 58 That sort of trashy evidence would be laughed out of any Court by the Procurator Fiscal. That's made my wee dram slip down more easily. Regards to my Irish friends from The Isles
DeleteOne is Dead,
DeleteOne has taken early retirement las week living in a grace and favour house
And the other is in active ministry.
All started over a promise for one of them to get a mitre as an auxiliary. did not happen.
It has never went to a court is was all Anonymous so no court action but everyone knows who the three are.
DeleteThere is a group trying to clear KOB name but that will not happen but the names may come out then.
Maybe the Westminster porker should have a break now to consider his future. I wonder if Vin will invite him in for another of their little chats. Meanwhile back in Ireland, anybody know how Father Sean Jones is getting along? Still squeaky clean for now, one hopes.
ReplyDeleteFr Mulvihil has been a bit quiet of late, Bp Pat.
ReplyDeleteHas he been forced into rehab? Like Mick.
Of course not. He does not have an alcohol problem.
DeleteHe is dealing with his own affairs.
21.22: Tell us more lies about the obnoxious Mulvihill. He needs to be housed in some rehab centre. Pat, your behaviour in using him is morally outrageous. The episode has its casualties - and you are holding your head high! Shame on you.
DeleteNo one would get away with "using" Bill.
DeleteHe would put them in their place pronto.
@21.48 Your name calling of Mulvihill and wanting info on him - does that make you a paragon of virtue? Do you wish to goad him yourself at this late hour to fulfil some sort of perverse bear baiting. I don't think you can hold Your head high. Why ask about him tonight when there has been no mention all day? You are just a filthy gossiping voyeur.
DeleteI agree.
DeleteThey are trying to bait Bill.
But isn't that what this blog is all about? Name calling?
DeleteThe truth will set you free even when the truth is seminarians and RC priests looking to ride on Grindr.
ReplyDeleteWise up fool with your truth will set you free nonsense. The Russian State Circus are employing Clowns, drink a few glasses of champagne when they offer it to you.
DeleteYeah...that auld guff about the truth sets you free...the Gospel...is only a pretext..a cover for all sorts...a lot of the clergy don’t take that stuff too seriously...some of them are too busy leading double and treble lives.
DeleteHow many of the ‘good priests’ knew their colleagues were sexually abusing children but turned a blind eye out of loyalty to the clerical fraternity. The clerical culture is toxic.
ReplyDeleteThat culture isn't just toxic, but lethally so, to the soul. 😆
DeleteOmertà omertà omertà!!!
DeleteMad Magna at 22:16
DeleteOh Polly you're gas, the life of culture you lead is toxic. Not to mention the gargle you swallow, it must be lethal. Love and prayers B. Eviva Maria!
Magna...mums the word!
ReplyDeleteThe clergy ain’t talking! What’s new!
The pontifical secret...Omertà!
Talking of mums, hey Maggie, where’s yer aul Maw? Have you put her in a home? Or smothered her? Bet your still cashing her pension.
DeletePension? PENSION????
DeleteMommie dearest is nowhere near pension age. (Please don't suggest otherwise, as she'll have a melodramatic breakdown. Soooo embarrassing!)
Did she have you when she was like 12?
DeleteTo the anonymous priest at 19:59. Whilst I disagree with the hierarchy of the RC church, I respect you defending your church. However isn't it better that Down and Connor pay legally for the Oratory where people can worship God than Treanor spending more money on his palace. As for Pat charging 300/400 pound for a wedding (if indeed that is what it costs) you should probably take a closer look at the prices an Antrim born priest residing in a very deprived Belfast parish is charging for wedding ceremonies. £150 for parishioners, £400 for non parishioners. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones Fr anonymous
ReplyDelete23.52 The Oratory is Pat and friends duty.
DeleteThe Oratory has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church.
The Oratory did belong to the Diocese and Pat residing in it so the diocese will likely never get it back.
The Oratory was settled at the Court and only Pat and Treanor know the confidential agreement.