Tuesday, 28 November 2017

OMITING PARTS OF THE MASS

A READER WRITES:

Bishop Pat

I would be interested in your comments on this. I have noticed within the past year or so that many priests are omitting parts of the Mass. For example, after the introductory 'in the name of the Father', they skip straight to the Gloria. They don't say the profession of faith. At first, leaving out the profession of faith was just a one-off mistake due to many priests nowadays being much older, working beyond retirement age and possibly a bit of forgetfulness, but I am now of the opinion that this is deliberate omission rather than a genuine mistake.  Also, these same priests have cut short the first, second or Gospel readings as according to my missalette, surely this cannot be right either. am I overthinking in this regard? as I had thought of contacting the bishop about this but am not sure he cares? can you please advise me.

Please do not use my name or email address if you are responding via your blog, which by the way I read every day.



Dear Friend, 

I get many emails and letters from people who ask me to keep them and their identities private and I always do.

I must confess that I do not always include the Gloria and the Creed in my Sunday Masses.

I do not intend any disrespect when I do this. It is just that I like to keep Mass between 45 and 50 minutes on a Sunday.

On top of this, I do not always preach a homily or sermon. Sometimes I invite others to do the homily and about once a month instead of a homily we pause after every reading to ask ourselves what God is saying to us in our current lives through the readings. The whole congregation, which in our Oratory is small, or those who wish to get an opportunity to speak.

I do this because I do not believe that God only uses bishops and priests to speak His Word - but all baptized Christians - and indeed all people.

What does it say in Scripture: "WOULD THAT THE WHOLE PEOPLE OF GOD WERE PROPHETS".

Do not get me wrong - I believe that the Mass is most special and its form is also special. But it is like when Jesus was asked about people breaking the Sabbath He replied: "THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN - NOT MAN FOR THE SABBATH".

The Mass was made for men and women - not men and women made for the Mass.

I think it is very important that when it comes to our Faith we are not LEGALISTIC like the Pharisees but are open to God BLOWING WHERE HE WILL.

I do not like it at all when priests rush Mass or are careless about it.

There was one priest here in Belfast whom they called FATHER FLASH who could do a Sunday Mass, with homily=, in 12 minutes!!!  I never thought that funny at all.

Personally, I would never skip the Penitential Rite - as that is our opportunity to ask God's forgiveness before we commune with him in His Word and Sacrament.

Mass should be celebrated respectfully always and take into account the local pastoral needs and culture of the community.

For instance, I do not see the point of FOUR EUCHARISTIC MINISTERS distributing Holy Communion and FOUR PRIESTS sitting doing nothing.

I also think, especially for Sunday Mass music and singing is vital.

I do not think a reading or Gospel should be cut short if it destroys the whole message of the reading.

I would imagine that most bishops nowadays would not listen to your complaints - and even if they did they would do nothing about it.

I do not like the new translation of the Mass and use the older Vatican 11 one.

Apparently, Pope Francis has given bishop's conferences permission to return to the previous one.

What a lot of waste of time and money this latest Pope Benedict translation was.

I also think that whenever possible all at Mass should receive Communion under both species - Bread and Wine.

Personally, I also like to celebrate Mass in a prayerful way - as it is the greatest "prayer" we can offer God.

There is a place for a bit of silence to help this.

Apart from the FOUR EUCHARISTIC PRAYERS I occasionally use the Eucharistic Prayers for Children's Masses.

A change of wording can sometimes help people nit to be rhyming off words without thinking about them.

NOW - over to our readers for their opinions...............













62 comments:

  1. Much Martyrs blood was spilt so that you could celebrate Mass as tradition sets out. The Eucharist Prayer and especially the Canon has evolved yes, but is fundamentally the same in sequence, except that is in Larne. Shame on you Pat, shame on you

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    1. A lot of heretical blood was spilt too to ensure Catholic tradition as it stands today.

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    2. Hello 00.42! Do you think the evolution of anaphora has finished? The church recognises that of Addai & Mari even though it doesn’t have the words of institution.

      It’s liturgical and sacramental theology so less of the shaming and appealing to blood spilling, please. Adult debates do not need them.

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    3. Agreed, 14:25. (Thank heaven for one sensible voice on this blog! Apart, of course, from my own.😆)

      It makes more sense, historically and theologically, to speak of Jesus' spilling his love, NOT his blood. (God! Catholicism is almost a byeword for 'sadism'.)

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  2. I agree with almost everything you say there, Pat and you give thoughtful reasons. The only exception might be the idea of people in the congregation speaking in a more random manner. That could work in a small oratory situation like you yours but it could lead to difficulties of many sorts in a larger church congregation. I could easily write a list of possible examples of this here but I genuinely don't think your readers need them spelt out at length. It doesn't take that much imagination or thought to visualise what could go wrong..

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    1. Understand. But I saw it happening very successfully in Ballymun, Dublin, some years ago.

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  3. Having conversations with people at mass or allowing anyone to offer impromptu comments works well in small groups only, except at family masses where you allow the children have their say. Being trendy by roaming the church doesn't sit comfortably with most priests. We must always have a proper respect and reverence for the celebration of the Eucharist while at the same time being relaxed and spontaneous when necessary. Some of the most inspiring masses I've attended were in monasteries where there is always a sense of appropriate reverence. The Irish, as we all know, do not want unnecessarily long, OTT Liturgies. They leave when it becomes overly long.

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    1. The priests of old who explained to the legalistic that you had fulfilled your Sunday obligation if you got in by the Offertory and didn't leave before the Our Father have a lot to answer for.

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    2. Your insistence on reverence is phariseeism. Jesus did not demand any reverence at the Last Supper. He did not gather up the crumbs as if the bread really was his body. He gave judas a piece and told him to go and betray him. It seems to have escaped everybodys notice that the this is my body and blood bit is not a prayer but an action. Jesus was not reverent in the Temple. He lost the head in it one time or twice if some authorities are to be believed. If you want reverence go and get it but do not judge the irreverent actions of others or think critically about it.

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    3. That we have to confess sins not our good works to God at Mass and the adulation for the extremism of a man thinking his blood could wipe sins is hardly anything to celebrate. Christianity is a stubborn faith that won't drop immoral doctrines.

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    4. 'Appropriate reverence', my eye 10:33! What you seek is a restoration of sphincter-tightening fear of God. Like those occasions when it was drummed into young children that they musn't allow the host to touch their hands, teeth, etc.

      You're a 'traddy', aren't you? The kind that wants to mould the Mass in THEIR image. God, too, for that matter.

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    5. I agree with you in part, 11:38. Why oh why are we so averse to celebrating virtue and instead make a fetish of vice (sin). We even have very young children at Mass beating their breasts and accusing themselves 'through my most grievous fault'.

      Both JPII and Benedict XVI have, between them, destroyed the essence (not the quintessence) of Mass: that it marks a human exodus, an emancipation, from eternal separation from God. And this should be celebrated JOYOUSLY, in THANKSGIVING. It is, after all, what the word 'Eucharist' means in Greek. This, truly, expresses reverence for God, not sphincter-tightening awe!

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    6. I will continue to behave with due reverence and respect, thank you!... as I would at any very special occasion that I really valued.
      (I don't require any lectures on the matter)

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    7. Magna at 13.04. How can you arrive at your outlandish conclusion re: my comment at 10.33? You are under the influence - not of the Holy Spirit kind, sadly!! If you read carefully you will discern that I believe we must always have a respect and reverence for the Eucharist and that I have been inspired by masses I've attended in many European monasteries where I've been touched by appropriate reverence. To conclude that I desire a return to inculcating a fear if God into people is illogical. And I'm not a "traddy" as you so dismissively and ignorantly attribute to me. I think Magna that your heart needs healing. You frequently misread and misrepresent the contributions of others and moreso if the contributor is a priest. You are offensively ignorant, lacking all self respect in your approach to people. Just as well you're not a priest because the people of God would quickly tire of you.

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    8. Your so-called 'respect and reverence', 17:07, amount to nothing more than obsequiously formal acknowledgement of God's presence. And anyone (especially a child) who dared not conform to your blithe model of 'worship' would undoubtedly draw highly public, and loud, opprobrium from you. (Such sounds as 'tch, tch!')

      What about love? You didn't mention 'love'! People like you never do, because you're control freaks. Love isn't controlling, but your 'respect and reverence' certainly are. They create an ambience which would make grovelling servants of those Jesus would call 'friends'. And this is why it means so much to you. The God of pre-Vatican II. (I was right to call you 'traddy'. You love to wallow in self-abasement...and would have everyone else do likewise.)

      If Jesus kicked you up the arse right now, you wouldn't recognise him, because he is not concerned with 'respect and reverence', but with love. And love is self-assured and self-relaxed. But your 'respect and reverence' cannot be. By definition.

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    9. Your comnent Magna at 17.44 is in stark contrast to my measured, sensible and logical comment at 17.07. Again, sadly, your mind is full of baggage today. So, continue your insulting, offensive, drunken behaviour. We see your attitude for what it truly is. Reverence and respect for Jesus and for others are intrinsic in LOVE OF GOD AND NEIGHBOUR as preached by Jesus. All rational, kind people understand this but somehow, you, Magna, possess little of these virtues, as evidenced in your unnecessary, nasty commentary.Your attempt at "spiritual" psychoanalysis is both abysmal and pathetic.Cease being the immature child.

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    10. Magna, what's wrong with you yet again? Your scribbles are laced with hatred and are so nasty and offensive. You obviously get some perverted thrill at attempting to "down" others. Grow up and act your age....You must have been deprived of love and affection in your life as your words reveal an unhappy life! Nothing that can't be fixed by seeing a therapist..

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    11. Thanks to posters at 19.24 and 19.29 who attempted to bring back balance to the commentary here, especially with regard to respect and reverence being, not in opposition to love to/from God but rather an essential ingredients of it. Right from the Old Testament onwards, we are continually reminded of that fact as we strive to appreciate the majesty of God and give Him due homage 'Every knee shall bow.. ".
      Bk of Proverbs tells us that the fear of God is" the beginning of Wisdom" So it's reverence and awe that fuels our worship, faith and obedience to God's will and that is the secret of developing our bond of Love with Him. If someone claims to truly love you and that person doesn't even show you respect...! Many many times this is stressed in Scripture.. Mark Ch. 4 37/41 and Romans Ch 1 24/25 and Ephesians Ch. 5 to name but a few. Think of the reaction of the close friends of Jesus at the Transfiguration or of the apostle, Thomas when he realised that he was genuinely in the presence of the Risen Lord.
      A lack of respect and reverence betrays an attitude of arrogance in my opinion and we are not always immune to that!

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    12. Baggy Hoody Maggie's off on one again, ROFL

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    13. 19:24, your own judgement (that your comment at 17:07 is 'measured, sensible and logical') is risible self-promotion and self-evident nonsense.

      T'was worth a laugh, though.😆

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    14. 19:29, yes, you've got it!! I was deprived of 'love and affection'.😆 (Right now the only thing I'm deprived of is a very stiff malt.😎)

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    15. No, 20:08! Must I yet spiritually spoonfeed you, and your kind?

      The majesty of God IS his love. Nothing else. The kind of 'respect and reverence' you, and your 'traddy' pals, have in mind has nothing whatever to do with love, but with hand-wringing, frightened servility. You lot are the Uriah Heeps of the religious world. You don't bring God to people, but your own psychological and quasi-theological insercurities and misunderstandings.

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    16. Well articulated 20.08. I hope Magna will absorb your comment. I just cannot comprehend his irritating, insulting and condescending replies. He needs spiritual healing. Respect and reverence at Mass lead to a deeper LOVE of God and for others.

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    17. Thanks for your comment, poster at 21.40
      (I am the poster you responded to @ 20.08)
      I see that you completely get what I was trying to say in a short enough space but it is a waste of time to exchange ideas with Magna Carta who never accepts that anybody else might have a legitimate point of view.
      Then he does his usual thing of becoming pompous, arrogant and abusive. He claims to be learned but there's no depth or rationale to most of his arguments. To say any more would probably be regarded as being provocative to him and unleash more vitriol and so I will leave it at that but thank you again.

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  4. Pat, a priest at home, who has a history of perusing toliets, actually changes the words of consecration. Surely this is fundamentally at odds with the message of Christ, do this in memory of me, not do this in interpretation of me, or do this as you feel???

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    1. I know one or two toilet perusing priests who rush through Mass and mess around with a mot of words too. I have concluded that they have no faith in anything but the toilet habit.

      One priest I know had a couple stay overnight in his presbytery who wanted to engage in bondage sex.

      The priest in question gave the man a number of vestments cinctures to tie the woman to the bed.

      The priest thought this was "funny" and told his pals about it!!!

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    2. That was a disgraceful abuse... if that person was telling something that really happened. A complete disrespect. He should be ashamed to mistreat the vestments like that.

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    3. 11.23
      What was your point in mentioning the cleric’s behaviour?
      If your argument requires a sordid tu quoque (or is quoque) for its effectiveness it won’t be difficult to rebutt or dismiss.

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  5. I agree wholeheartedly with comments @3
    3.35 and at 10.33
    The world and the week can be such a noisy bustling place... I love a few moments of real calm and silence and reverence for the Blessed Eucharist to concentrate everyone's thoughts after receiving Holy Communion. It doesn't have to be over-long.... but lovely to stop for those few precious moments.... We will be back into the rush soon enough. A minute or two of silence to allow God to "speak" in our minds and hearts. It can be the most eloquent moment of all..

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    1. I agree that Mass should very often be contemplative.

      On occasions it should also be challenging.

      "Jesus came to comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable".

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    2. I agree with you poster 11.24
      A few moments of silence after we receive the Blessed Eucharist are often the moments when you "hear" what God would like you hear at that minute. I dislike when our pianists in Holy Family Church feel that they have to fill the blank moment with tinkling the keys as if they felt the congregation couldn't tolerate even an instant without background noise. (It's a habit that has come over from popular radio News broadcasting and TV etc... They don't allow "dead" time) But to us at Mass, it's NOT dead time. It is our own personal one-to-one time. Tben we are quickly back to being part of the group in the chapel again when it's over. It's precious for that reason. Thank you so much.

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    3. Jesus said "Peace be to you."

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  6. Well Bishop Pat you said it your self the Holy Mass is all about Time 45 to 50 Mins Our Holy Father Pope Francis has spoken about these fast Masses and they have to STOP.
    The Gloria is so joyful and should be said on Sundays and Holy Days as well as the Creed it is a sad day if it is all down to time.
    Pope Francis has given permission to Local Bishop's to change parts of the Mass but must check it first with Rome but yes it needs amended badly.
    Our Lord taught us the Our Father he did not DARE us to say it so hopefully that will go.
    To the original issue I would strongly write to the Bishop and copy it to the Priest and start off by reminding the Bishop the Holy Father said we have to keep the Bishop's up to date what is happening in Parishes. may not get a respond from the Bishop but the priest will be advised. after all it is all in the Rubics of the Holy Mass

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  7. I know priests who say “for us and our salvation” omitting men and also “all of the clergy” just saying “all God’s people”. Does it matter ?

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    1. The variants probably don't matter much. What does natter is the statement these guys are making that they know better than their colleagues the liturgical and linguistic experts entrusted with responsibility for the missal. Maybe they're uncomfortable with their sexuality and don't like the word "men" to be used in an inclusive sense (homines, human beings). Maybe they're so embarrassed about being priests that they can't identify with "all the clergy" as a group in the Church needing to be singled out for special prayers.

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    2. 'These guys', as you put it 12:53, are not liturgical and linguistic dabblers. And your attributing confused sexuality as their motive for introducing such informality to the rite of Mass says a great deal...about you.

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    3. 11.55
      qui propter nos homines - no mention of males/men - To spell it out : for us human beings

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    4. They are being politically correct I suppose, in that there are women present as well as "men" and so the word "us" is fine. It includes everyone equally.

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  8. In your blog post today you speak about baptize, you also speak about Vatican eleven (11) not Vatican II. Are you an American?

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    1. Gone to check my passport...

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    2. Quite right 12:44......Pat, please get it right when referring to the Second Vatican Council. Use the capital 'I' instead of the figure '1' and then it will be correct. As an English teacher I get annoyed with poor grammar and bad spelling. Sorry!

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  9. Pat, I thought you promised not to allow Magna debase and denigrate others in so horrible a manner. His comments are bizarre. Also very insightful into the state of his mind. Worrying for his well being....

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    1. Thank you for worrying.

      Now, have you anything sensible to contribute?

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    2. Just worry about your own posts.
      No one knows what u on about, as most here are anonymous

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    3. Magna 21.22. Have a good night's sleep, give your tired mind a rest, pray and hope you'll awaken to a bright new day and that will unburden your heart of angst...Be kind so that you will receive kindness in return. Remember the words of Jesus - "The amount you give out will be the amount you will be given back". Love, compassion and kindness will grace our lives when we behave accordingly..

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  10. I agree with )
    00.42. Alot of blood was spilled to make the history and theology of the mass what it is. That being said Mass is not a magic formula where if you miss a world it doesn't work. The key is that it is a living celebration of word and sacrament. Missing bits to finish quickly is not an option nor is habitual arrive late and leave early

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  11. Magna , don't ever stop commenting the Pharisees are always going to criticize you .
    They can't seem to put up logical or decent arguments but take cover in abusing you . They also use the royal we to try to strengthen their abuse.

    So Magna ,continue to contribute . I hope there are many others ,like me ,who enjoy your vast knowledge .

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    1. Yes me too.
      Funny how he never annoys me and I post far , far too often.

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  12. Quiet Man, Magna can be useful at times but encourage his propensity to be abusive towards others and he is obnoxious. Perhaps you might get through to his arrogance and self righteousness and tame his nastiness. Most people on this blog are fair minded, rational, empathetic human beings who are respectful of different opinions, but not Magna. There is an unacceptable poison in his responses to others, an observation made by many bloggers. I defend the right to speak but not the right to be offensive and hateful towards any group of people.

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    1. I still don’t understand how You as an anonymous poster think that can speak for others.
      Surely as an anonymous poster You should just speak for yourself.

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    2. Well, he/she can read that the vast majority of reasonable other posters feel the same and so he/she can certainly ally his/her opinion with them. No reason why not!

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  13. "vast knowledge '? You are joking?!

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  14. Why would a Protestant need to be baptised into the Church of England faith, just cause she marrying a prince
    Sean can u answer this ?

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    1. I'll answer it... The Royal family would prefer to be certain that Harry's intended wife was a Protestant and a baptised member of the Established Church as they would call the Church of England. There would have been no official record of her being baptised into that Church and they wanted to create one. They would be very aware too that Meghan had been sent to a fee- paying Catholic school in Los Angeles and they did not want a potential situation where after marriage, she suddenly declared that she was in fact a Catholic. They do not want Catholicism introduced into the House of Windsor. Sad, but true. There is an English law which forbids a Catholic being the King or Queen and even though it's highly unlikely that Prince Harry's future offspring would be needed as heirs, they would never risk the possibility of that happening and them being - - horror of horrors! - - Catholic children of an American Catholic mother. (Investigate the "Act of Succession" if you are further interested.) I hope this explains it to you.

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    2. 23.29 A Protestant is not baptised into CoE. There is is only one Christian Baptism. A person may be received in to the church formally. Baptism only happens once.

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    3. Was thinking the same myself Sean.surely if she did happen to be baptised into the catholic faith she would always remain baptised no matter what.
      I personally believe that it was a reporting error, there will be much discussion about this now.
      Media said she was a Protestant.

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    4. Possibly Meghan was never baptised.
      We will probably never know.

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  15. Can u sue him Pat...Amy ?

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  16. That deceived nobody MC! Aggrandisement...it's called.

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  17. Vast knowledge? You mean fast (Wiki) knowledge.

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