Tuesday, 12 June 2018

SAINT PETER WAS NEVER IN ROME

Was The Apostle Peter ever in Rome




Jesus’ chief disciple examined
In this blog post, Brown University Religious Studies professor Nicola Denzey Lewis answers frequently asked questions about the apostle Peter. Denzey Lewis appears in the CNN series Finding Jesus: Faith, Fact, Forgery, which aims to investigate artifacts that shed light on the world in which Jesus lived.—Ed.




What traditions connect the apostle Peter to Rome?

Jesus’ chief disciple, Peter (also called Simon Peter or Cephas), has been associated with Rome for nearly 2,000 years. The earliest testimony to the apostle Peter’s presence in Rome is a letter from a Christian deacon named Gaius. Writing probably toward the end of the second century C.E.—so, around 170 or 180 C.E.—Gaius tells about the wondrous things in Rome, including something called a tropaion (see below for more) where Peter established a church—in fact, the Church, the Roman Catholic church at the site where St. Peter’s Basilica is today. But there are other traditions besides Peter’s tropaion. One early Christian text, the Apocryphal Acts of Peter, recounts many things that Peter did in the city. At one point in Acts of Peter, Peter is taunted by a flamboyant heretic, Simon Magus. Simon challenges Peter to a flying contest around the Roman Forum, but Peter’s prayers make Simon crash to the ground, proving that Simon’s powers are not as great as his own. At the end of this text, Peter, not wishing to be martyred for his faith, flees from Roman authorities on the Via Appia leading out of the city. Rather unexpectedly, Peter meets Jesus, who is traveling in the opposite direction. He asks Jesus, “Where are you going?” Jesus tells Peter that he is going to Rome “to be crucified again.” Peter realizes, from this, that he cannot flee from his fate. “Where are you going?” in Latin is “Quo Vadis?” and there’s a medieval church in Rome called the Church of Quo Vadis at the spot where Peter met Jesus. To prove that his vision was real, you can still see there a bit of marble pavement which the faithful say miraculously preserve Jesus’ footprints.

Is it likely that the apostle Peter went to Rome and founded the church there?

Interestingly, the Bible says nothing about Peter ever traveling to Rome. When the gospels end, Peter is in Jerusalem. It’s the same in the Book of Acts. The apostle Paul, in his letters, also talks about meeting Peter in the eastern Mediterranean. After Jesus’ death, Paul says that Jesus’ brother, James, and Peter are the co-leaders of the “church,” or assembly, of Jesus-followers in Jerusalem. In short, there is no early textual evidence for Peter in Rome, so for some people, it’s very hard to believe that he ever traveled there. Not only is it a very long way, according to the New Testament, Peter was a fisherman who was not very educated and who spoke only Aramaic; he was not the type of person that might travel widely across the Roman Empire to a large city where Latin and Greek were the dominant languages. The absence of connection between Peter and Rome in the New Testament, the lack of references to him in our earliest Roman Christian literature, and what we know of Peter’s background and character all combine to make it unlikely, to my mind, that he ever went to Rome.

Is there any evidence that the apostle Peter died in Rome?

There is no solid evidence—textual or even archaeological—that Peter died in Rome. Starting around the end of the second century, Christian pilgrims went to see Peter’s tropaion. But a tropaion is not a tomb. The word itself is very unusual; sometimes translated as “trophy,” it means something like a war memorial or a cenotaph (i.e., an empty grave). It’s not the word used in the Roman Empire for a burial place. Yet this spot—which was originally in the middle of an ancient cemetery—was quickly understood as the place where Peter was buried. When it was excavated in the 1950s, archaeologists were shocked to find that there was no grave and no bones under the tropaion. Only later were some bones produced from that excavation, and it’s a fascinating story we talk about in Finding Jesus. Are these Peter’s bones? That appears to be a matter of faith. The official Vatican position, first stated in 1968, is that they mightbe.

Why are there two places in Rome where the apostle Peter was supposedly buried?

This is another fascinating thing we explore in Finding Jesus. Most people know about Peter’s traditional burial site at St. Peter’s. But it turns out that there’s a second site in Rome where pilgrims went for hundreds of years, which was known as the Memoria Apostolorum(the Memorial to the Apostles). It’s off the Via Appia at the modern site of the Catacombs of San Sebastiano, and you can still go and visit it today, although the memorial itself is largely built over. What’s amazing is that the site preserves around 600 graffiti scrawled by Christian pilgrims in the early Middle Ages, most of them prayers to Peter and Paul, the joint patron saints of Rome. It certainly looks like people believed that Peter was buried there, but excavators found no evidence of a tomb there, either! As far as I can tell, this leaves us with two options: Either Peter’s body was at both these sites at one point and moved from one to the other, or Peter’s body was never at either site, but people still associated him with the site. It didn’t always take a body or a tomb for a site to be sacred, after all.





Nicola Denzey Lewis, Visiting Associate Professor in the Department of Religious Studies at Brown University, specializes in Gnosticism, Late Antiquity, Roman social history, the history of Christianity, and women and gender. Her recent publications include Cosmology and Fate in Gnosticism and the Graeco-Roman World (Brill, 2013) and Introduction to “Gnosticism” (Oxford Univ. Press, 2013).


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Peter’s Tomb
Recently Discovered In Jerusalem
by F. PAUL PETERSON
Saint Peter's Tomb




   "While visiting a friend in Switzerland, I heard of what seemed to me, one of the greatest discoveries since the time of Christ—that Peter was buried in Jerusalem and not in Rome. The source of this rumor, written in Italian, was not clear; it left considerable room for doubt or rather wonder. Rome was the place where I could investigate the matter, and if such proved encouraging, a trip to Jerusalem might be necessary in order to gather valuable first-hand information on the subject. I, therefore, went to Rome. After talking to many priests and investigating various sources of information, I finally was greatly rewarded by learning where I could buy the only known book on the subject, which was also written in Italian. It is called, "Gli Scavi del Dominus Flevit", printed in 1958 at the Tipografia del PP. Francescani, in Jerusalem. It was written by P. B. Bagatti and J. T. Milik, both Roman Catholic priests. The story of the discovery was there, but it seemed to be purposely hidden for much was lacking. I consequently determined to go to Jerusalem to see for myself, if possible, that which appeared to be almost unbelievable, especially since it came from priests, who naturally because of the existing tradition that Peter was buried in Rome, would be the last ones to welcome such a discovery or to bring it to the attention of the world.




    In Jerusalem I spoke to many Franciscan priests who all read, finally, though reluctantly, that the bones of Simon Bar Jona (St. Peter) were found in Jerusalem, on the Franciscan monastery site called, "Dominus Flevit" (where Jesus was supposed to have wept over [pg. 4] Jerusalem), on the Mount of Olives. The pictures show the story. The first show an excavation where the names of Christian Biblical characters were found on the ossuaries (bone boxes). The names of Mary and Martha were found on one box and right next to it was one with the name of Lazarus, their brother. Other names of early Christians were found on other boxes. Of greatest interest, however, was that which was found within twelve feet from the place where the remains of Mary, Martha and Lazarus were found—the remains of St. Peter. They were found in an ossuary, on the outside of which was clearly and beautifully written in Aramaic, "Simon Bar Jona".




PAT SAYS:

I believe that St. Peter was never in Rome for all the reasons outlined above by Professor Denzey Lewis.

There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that Peter was in Rome or died in Rome.

The uneducated Peter could not speak the languages spoken in Rome.

The 1950s study reported to the Pope, also show that Peter was buried in Jerusalem and not in Rome.


The Roman Catholic INSTITUTION was founded by the Roman Emperor Constantine.

That was a political and military empire.

When that Rome fell - another Rome emerged - The Roman Empire Mk 11 - the RC institution.

In the beginning, it too was a political, military and religious empire.

Gradually over the centuries it ceased more and more to be a military and political empire and became more of a religious empire.

In the late 1800s, the Pope lost all his land and he went into the Vatican where he tried to bolster his religious empire with the claim of papal infallibility.


In 1929 the dictator Mussolini, in return for Vatican support gave the Vatican land and money in a concordat.


The man coming to Ireland in August is not the successor of Peter. He is the current RC Bishop of Rome and the current "emperor" of the Roman Empire Mk 11. 


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76% OF IRISH WILL NOT ATTEND THE POPES MASS



According to a poll on journal.ie yesterday 76% of the Irish do not wish to attend Pope Francis; Mass in the Phoenix Park in Dublin.

19% said that they would attend.

4.8 % said they did not know.

I will be one of that 76%.

Ireland has indeed changed and will be changing more as time goes on.

The Death Knell is sounding for the Irish RC Church. And this is payback for the hundreds of years for the priest-ridden country perpetrated by the Irish bishops and priests.




It is payback for all the abused children, women and men.

It is payback for the Tuam Babies.

It is payback for the Magdalens.

It is payback for the thousands of children secretly exported by nuns.

It is payback for the dead orphans in unmarked graves in convents and institutions.

It is payback for Sean Brady and Brendan Smith.

It is payback for hundreds of years of sexual domination by priests with all it's guilt, misery, fear, denial.

It is payback for the Tyranny of the Confessional and Pulpit.

It is payback for all the unbaptized babies buried in family gardens.

It is payback for the hundreds of thousands of gay people who had to flee Catholic Ireland for Pagan England.

It is payback for Useless Amy, Dictatorial Dermo, Horney Casey, Kildorrery Crane,  Donal Giro, Nasty Phonsie, Maynooth, Magherafelt Gates, Gorgeous, Puck, etc, etc.

The Irish People have RISEN!

ALLELUIA!







112 comments:

  1. https://www.catholic.com/tract/was-peter-in-rome

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  2. Interesting article on St Peter indeed. Thank you.
    I'm worried +Pat that you have an axe to grind with the Roman Catholic Church, founded on St Peter. If invalid, then your Ordination was invalid, your Episcopate is invalid and your baptism was invalid.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have never claimed that the Sacraments of the RC Church are invalid.

      Nor have I any concerns about it as PART of the Body of Christ.

      It is the INSTUTION/EMPIRE aspect I have problems with.

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  3. Dear Pat, do you have any idea of how big this event in Dublin will be covered by the Irish television stations?

    I assume RTE will do their usual performance, as always, and have extensive live coverage with usually utter deference, even though RTE is nearly always lambasted by right wing Catholics for being everything they despise.

    After all the crap they get, especially from the ultra-right Catholic newspaper "Alive" which is controlled by the Dominican right wing thug Fr Brian McKevitt, some reason in the 21st century still broadcast a Roman Catholic prayer "Angelus" before their flagship early evening news every day. That baffles me. They get pounded on by the church and in return they ass kiss when they feel like it. Pathetic.

    But how much do you think will TV3 show? They made a big fuss with their opening of their newly refurbished news studio and their 3News hub, but will they bother to provide any live coverage, apart from their usual output in Ireland AM, 5.30 and the Tonight show?

    It will be interesting to see how the BBC and ITV here in the UK will cover it. I loved how they found it wonderful when little Papa Benedict came to England some years ago. As a Church of England man myself, I do enjoy watching Roman Catholics enjoying their faith, but welcoming a man who was exposed in covering up child sex abuse crimes by priests against defenceless children, made me sick.

    Will you be covering it here on your blog this summer?

    May our loving creator always bless you and protect you Pat.

    P.S. I await the vile vitriol and usual slanging match to commence once my comment has been posted, as it seems there are plenty of trolls out there who just love this blog. I can't wait!

    ReplyDelete
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    1. 00.53: Your use of the word thug about Fr. McKevitt, the Dominican is unwarranted and immediately give you away as someone with axes to grind. Phone RTE and other media outlets for information re: coverage. It seems many of you just cannot be openhearted or kind enough to welcome Pope Francis without attempting to devalue his Petrine Office, demean him and pour ridicule upon him. The Pope will be welcomed genuinely and warmly by those who want to be with him for his short pilgrimage. He will pack in some special moments with many groups, so let's wait and see. The sneering contempt and encouragement of bias towards Pope Francis is very unjust and undeserved. Every effort is being used by Pat to create division, anger and protest but sorry for you Pat, you and the Irish will not see a crowd to match those that will turn out for Pope Francis. There is no expectation other than what's already mentioned but still the crowds will not be matched by any other visiting dignitary. Be kind for once. God bless Pope Francis.

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    2. RTร‰ is the national broadcaster - tv3 is a Mickey Mouse operation. That’s why RTร‰ are obliged to broadcast. I as a licence fee payer demand this. I will write to Roger Childs expressing my wishes also. He’s a very good and balanced religious affairs editor.

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    3. 00:53

      Thank you for your very rational words and kindness.

      I will certainly be covering the visit of the RC Bishop of Rome.

      Ignore the said trolls :-)

      Delete
  4. Here we go again.! A controversial spot of heresy to liven things up...Sadly, it has all become a bit boring and predictable.. your opinion I mean... By the way, Christ founded His Church, vine and branches . It has all been said before and better. A controversial book was a nice little earner for this "Professor" though.. Just ask Dan Brown! He knows what the suckers will buy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see".

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    2. 11.05: Indeed none so boo d as those who do not wish to see - Couldn't have found a better epitaph for yourself, my Lord Bishop! How you are so blind!

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    3. Like many others I am never bored with +Pat's blog. In fact it is one of the highlights of my day.

      Delete
  5. Religion offers hope and belief. The RCC in Ireland offers an institution & clerics to obey. The current situation is an awakening to such a reality - a reality which could otherwise be stated that the RCC in Ireland offers nothing.

    Is it no wonder that Mohammad said Christians had betrayed the Word of God.

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  6. Up to a point, this stuff writes itself. Just a bit of fun. A continuation from yesterday.....

    I am the very model of a modern Seminarian,
    I know things theological, liturgical, and biblical,
    I know the Deans and Bishops and I quote their tastes historical,
    From Diocese to Diocese, in order categorical;
    I'm very well acquainted too with elegance sartorial,
    Dressed up for each occasion, both liturgical and clerical,
    With modern social media I'm teeming with a lot o' news---
    With many cheerful facts about the saunas the professors use.

    I know philosophy especially when it is scholasticus
    I’ve tried the sin of Sodom with attendees miscellaneous;
    In short, when theological, liturgical, and biblical
    I am the very model of a modern Seminarian.

    I know our church’s history, St Peter’s Acts apocryphal
    In ecclesiastical sciences you’d never call me orthodox,
    I quote in elegiacs all the sins of pro abortionists,
    But Grinder might well lead me to that Kerry man who’s known as Puck.
    I know of Amy’s secret friends and Dublin Martin’s enemies,
    I hear the croaking chorus of Maynooth’s bedroom profanities,
    Then I can hum a hymn which makes me sound quite sanctimonious,
    And celibacy isn’t really something for the likes of us


    Armagh Rhymer

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well written and entertaining.

      We will have to make you the Blog's Poet Laureate :-)

      And you might have to share that position with MMM.

      Delete
  7. The virgin Mary was an unmarried mother. If she had lived in Ireland she would have been sent to the Magdalen Laundries!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Are you sure BVM was an “unmarried mother” - are you not confused about the conception and the living arrangements thereafter ?

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    2. If Saint Mary had been born in Ireland in the 40s and 50s her parish priest would have had her made a Magdalen.

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    3. 11.10 - Pat, if that were to be the case with St. Mary, your mother and father, your family and the rest of society would have passed by, whispered in badness about the women behind walls - as we all did - so, don't try to tell us that you'd have broken down any wall to rescue these women, whom society handed over to the institutions. Shame on all of us from every generation past. Now we think we're saints because we say "wasn't it terrible". What did any of us do?

      Delete
    4. 11.10: And what would you have done Pat? You'd have done exactly what everyone did - pass by on the other side. Hindsight allows all of us to be very kind!!

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    5. Those who were directly responsible, and are still alive should be prosecuted and their financial empires taken from them.

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    6. @Pat 11.10
      Don't forget that the sisters would have sold Jesus for 1,000 pieces of silver, forged his new birth cert and waved him off to the Americas to be raised by the worthy (worthy because they were wealthy and obedient to the pharasees).

      Delete
    7. Agreed.

      That's why these dwindling orders of nuns each have multi millions in their bank accounts.

      "Dirty" money!

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    8. Time for the criminal assets bureau to lighten their loads.

      Delete
  8. Is the Pope the head of the Church. Is the Queen head of Church of England. Does it make any difference in the long run Where is the Holy Spirit. Denominations are not like football teams playing the same game but in competition with each other

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  9. I was willing to give Francis the benefit of the doubt until he decided not to visit the North. He has, however, time to visit a shrine in the west of Ireland where apparitions were supposedly seen by a bunch of peasants in the nineteenth century. A living church versus a dead church. The latter is the case.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I once read it was just a magic lantern slide projected onto the gable end of the church in 1879. It was circular in appearance, e.g., a slide.

      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Magic_Lantern.jpg/220px-Magic_Lantern.jpg

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    2. Do you believe every word you read? You sound a bit gormless if you do.

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    3. Whatever you may think of the apparitions - and thankfully Catholics are not required to believe in apparitions - Knock is today amazingly alive. It is a major Marian shrine with its very own international airport. Pope Francis is known for his personal devotion to Mary and going so far out of his way to visit Knock is surely his way of encouraging us to think again about throwing away our rosary beads.

      Delete
  10. Thank you poster @ 1.06 (from bottom of yesterday's posts re/Pope not going North and reasons..)
    That really needed saying. I agree as I feel the same very often!

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  11. Simon bar Jona buried in Jerusalem? You might as well say you've found the grave of John Smith or Joe Murphy in your local cemetery.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So you DO know where he was buried then?

      Have you had anything on the matter published?

      Delete
    2. The TROLL (Pat’s mate) is out in force again today attacking most posters.

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    3. 13:49, no, I'm not out 'in force'; I'm alone, actually.

      Can't you count?๐Ÿ˜†

      And this is only my third posting among (how many?) 68 in total, so I'm hardly 'attacking most posters'

      Again, can't you count?

      As for 'attacking', no: I'm just responding.

      Are you prone to melodramatise? Or, worse, to catastrophise?

      Poor thing.๐Ÿ˜†

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  12. If one in five of the population are willing to make the journey and stand for hours before and after it is truly remarkable. I could not face that level of hassle so I'll be glad of the live coverage and the possibility of gaining the Indulgence at home.

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  13. I am a student at QUB and I welcome the visit of Pope Francis. I was having a discussion about this event yesterday with a mixed group of Protestants, Baha’i, Sikh, Catholics and atheists who were all happy that the Pope was coming for a variety of reasons. All were respectful in their views as I would be of any of their leaders of faith and none. I’m glad that a younger generation seem to be more respectful, open, tolerant and accepting as opposed to some of the views expressed on this blog which I only became aware of yesterday. I’ve never encountered such nastiness and hatred but the existence of such blogs is the topic of our next discussion.

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    Replies
    1. You're a regular reader of 'Alive', aren't you?

      And you read it silently, almost reverently, and certainly noddingly, don't you?

      Delete
  14. The Church may have to lay on free transport as well as free tickets. Also, free condoms for seminarians attending.

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  15. @11.08 Why do you presume Seminarians will feel the need to avail of condoms free or otherwise? Some choose not to use them. Get into the real world will you.

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    Replies
    1. They're probably taking PrEP. Very wise.

      https://www.iwantprepnow.co.uk/

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    2. Most of my fellow seminarians prefer bareback sex. A new film is coming out soon about Maynooth called BAREBACK MOUNTING.

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    3. 11.31 Another ‘probably’. Yet more presumption. How do you know they even know about PrEP let alone use it. You don’t seem to know a lot - just ‘probably’.

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    4. There is an Armagh Sem who doesn’t like wearing a rubber during sex, he claims he’s allergic. He refuses to wear one and won’t go on PrEP either. Russian roulette in other words.

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    5. Nothing wrong with adverse possession. It exists in law for good reason... actually originating in connection with the crusades.

      And if right us right the title of any presbytery exists in the name of the parish not the diocese...assuming that prieats are lawfully self-employed (as opposed to diocese & bishops evading taxes such as PRSI)

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    6. What the hell is 'Prep'?๐Ÿ˜•

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    7. Prep is a drug. If taken regularly it substantially reducing the risk of contracting HIV... needless to mention it is popular with persons who like to indulge with unprotected sex, sex with unknown others and unprotected sex with unknown others. This is a massive must-have when engaging in group sex.

      Sadly I learned about it from a seminarian.

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    8. Thank you, 23:51.

      I can't believe that people treat one another in such impersonal fashion.

      Thank you for responding.

      Delete
  16. It matters not one iota whether Peter was ever in Rome or buried in Timbuktu. Christ’s own words to Peter are the foundation of the Petrine office and ministry in the Church. If the Vatican and Rome were levelled in an earthquake tomorrow, the Church of Jesus Christ would survive and the Pope - His vicar on earth - would simply be Pope from somewhere else. Maybe even Dublin or Belfast!

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Then why has the RC Church put all its money and such great efforts on saying Peter was in Rome?

      Any why all this Pope Worship?
      According to you a name change is required - The Timbuktu Catholic Church?

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    2. Interestingly we call ourselves simply "The Catholic Church in Ireland" It was the English who first labelled us "Roman Catholics". Even the most ecumenical of Irish Protestants don't seem to realise how offensive and sectarian that is, especially when they insist on it as it puts us at the bottom rather than the top of the alphabetical list of religious denominations in Ireland.

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    3. Pat at 11:41 - an asinine comment. Stop being obtuse. You are showing yourself to be a bigoted oaf blinded by your own prejudices.

      There is no “Pope worship”. The Pope is a mortal like all of us. The respect people have for him as the Vicar of Christ is not “worship”.

      When hundreds of thousands of people turn out to wave at the Queen of England is that worship too? It’s a mixture of everything from affection, respect and downright curiosity.

      You are being absurd and dogged in your obstinate bigotry. The papacy based in Rome is the result of history. There are many scholars who would take issue with the “oracle” you have dug up to support your own notions.

      Delete
    4. I'm glad you agree that the Papacy is the result of history and not Providence.

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    5. There you go again with your twisting. I said no such thing. The Petrine ministry and office was instituted by Jesus Christ. Where it is located - where the Pope lives - is a matter of history and the ministry and office doesn’t depend upon it. In any case, Divine Providence is also worked out in history.

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    6. I believe that Jesus gave all the Apostles, not only one, the authority.

      Historically the Church started in Jerusalem.

      Jerusalem and Antioch are the original place of the Church, not Rome.

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    7. You “believe” what you like. The Scriptures and Tradition clearly show otherwise. All you are doing is attempting to rewrite and twist reality to suit your own warped ideas but you can’t!

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    8. 15:21, Scripture and 'Tradition' do not show otherwsise, because they do not prove otherwise.

      When Jesus reportedly called Simon-bar-Jonah the 'rock' (what a wonderfully 'butch' moniker!๐Ÿ˜), he made it clear that he (Jesus) would be the builder.

      All authority, therefore, resides in Jesus, not so-called 'Peter'.

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    9. Pat, surely the papacy is a fruit of history and Providence.

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    10. I love watching the Jerusalem Patriarch and his liturgies on line. So nice to hear ecclesiastical Greek!

      Do they still sell the pigs in Greek in Ireland?

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    11. “Magna Carta” at 15:49 of course Jesus is the Builder and of course all authority resides in Him. The Church has never claimed otherwise, you thick and obtuse Ass!

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    12. Really?!๐Ÿ˜„

      So what of the so-called, er, 'Petrine Office'?๐Ÿ˜…

      Delete
  17. Correction The Virgin Mary our blessed and holy mother was betrothed to Joseph and under his protection when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her. These blithe comments about Our Lady are disrespectful and do you think that God would not provide and look after the greatest woman ever created and born in the history of mankind

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    1. Jesus said the greatest person ever born was John the Bapyist?

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    2. You should know Pat after all you studied theology to be ordained but I would think that Our Lord Jesus Christ in his human nature was the greatest person ever born then Mary the immaculate conception and then St John the Baptist and St Joseph I am only a lay person you were ordained to the Roman Catholic priesthood what were you taught please

      Delete
    3. I wonder what overshadowed her means.
      Did Mary never have sexual intercourse.
      Was the term not used then?
      Did the fallen women and girls in Ireland not have any sexual education?
      I didn’t, I went to a convent school both primary and secondary.
      A friend of mine, a teacher, said that when she got married , she had no idea how to have sexual
      We are both still alive, so really it’s not that long ago.

      Delete
    4. 12:25

      MATTHEW 11:11

      "Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he".

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    5. whats a Bapyist?

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    6. They’d hardy be born of a man. Load of muck. Burn that book of crap I say.

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    7. Burn what book? Nazi.

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  18. BTW Quo Vadis? was the title Mary McAleese chose for her canon law thesis when she was publishing it. She made the remarkable assertion that it was Jesus who asked Peter where he was going and not the other way round as had been so often assumed.

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    Replies
    1. It’s a legend. There are many versions. Nothing remarkable about that.

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    2. The McAleese version seems utterly original. Can you provide a reference to anything similar?

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  19. Jesus said the greatest person ever born was John the Bapyist?
    Until Pat Buckley came along - or at least that's what Buckley thinks! Aren't we lucky to have this wonderful prophet in your midst? God help us!

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  20. I wonder what Jesus would think of the way +Pat was kicked around the dining room in St Peters in Belfast.

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    Replies
    1. @13.30 Pat didn’t get kicked hard enough. We only have his version but he doesn’t tell us how he mistreated Fr. Joe at St Peter’s. Give us the real version Pat as most priests in D&C know all about it.

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    2. I would be very interested to hear how I was supposed to have mistreated Joe McGurnaghn in St. Peter's.

      I have never heard the D&C priests version of events.

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    3. PS: I'm surprised you approve the kicking of any person And think anybody deserved a harder, better kicking?

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    4. it’s quite telling that in the original post reference was made to Jesus. However what followed was someone condoning violent attacks on another. Did you miss the part where the OP asked what would Jesus think?

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    5. Ah +Pat this reminds me of Graham Norton. You said you had to eat your meals in the kitchen with the housekeeper. Graham Norton said he often ended up sleeping in his dogs bed. At least you weren’t made eat your meal out of a dogs dish!

      Shalom.

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    6. You stated yesterday that you were “beaten” in the dining room of St Peter’s Presbytery. You were a grown man. Why the hell didn’t you land a kick in the balls on McGurnaghan? The fact is you were no “saint” yourself. There are two sides to your St Peter’s tales of woe.

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    7. Pat, 14.22: You may indeed have been mistreated and I condemn any form of bullying and abuse, especially among and by fellow clerics. Abhorrent, but you are not totally innocent in past disputes and conflicts, so it's a lie to pretend otherwise. Often when I read your blog and your responses to legitimate questions, I see a lot of passive aggression and bullying. This reveals itself in the harsh condemnations you make, the ongoing ridiculing of certain clerics and the constant repeating of your vengeful narrative. TRUTH has many sides, never one dimensional.

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    8. I have never claimed innocence of any kind.

      All know is I put my heart and soul into my work in St. Peter's from 1987 to 1983.

      I may have ministered in a different way than others and I never expected others to do things my way.

      There was a lot of tension, due to bullying and cynicism in the presbytery.

      There was no call for me to be knocked to the floor and kicked.

      I have often regretted not reporting my assault to the RUC as afterwards people called me a liar.

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    9. The McGurnaghan family have lots of stories to tell and I know they are disgusted at your treatment of Fr. Joe and your slander against him back then and now more recently also. What’s this you keep saying about truth setting you free. Trouble always followed you in the diocese Pat even you have to admit that.

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    10. Joe McGurnaghan when in St. Peter's, did little or no work, spent all day in his room playing classical music and sipping Martell Cognac.

      He was also very bitter and cynical, which he put down to his own bad treatment by D&C PPs.

      It was not he who assaulted me. It was Vincent McKinley.

      But Joe carried on a sustained psychological and verbal abuse of me.

      Later, while in a wheelchair in Lourdes he told a pilgrim that he regretted the way he behaved.

      Had I k own that before he died I would have contacted him to ask for reconciliation.

      And that is the truth.

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    11. Bishop Pat, the reason they hated and attacked you so often and bitterly was down to Cain-and-Abel syndrome: enmity brought on by having one's lack of goodness, and one's spiritual sloth, shown up by the goodness of another.

      They hated you because, unintentionally, you made them look bad.

      They'd have done the same to Jesus.

      Delete
  21. Does the Vatican hold the title deeds of the house where you reside +Pat? What about succession? Who will succeed you like the Holy Father with St Peter? How will they succeed you without a place to preach the Gospel of Christ?

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    1. I imagine the title deeds are in Down and Connor?

      I am not interested in empire building.

      If I leave any worthwhile seeds behind the Lord will give them life or let them die.

      In the future I think there will be a flourishing of House Churches.

      Currently I have the use of a number of churches.

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    2. It’s going back to that +Pat and I think smaller gatherings are more spiritually enriching. The days when statue suckers were in mass and then within 5 mins of leaving start ridiculous un-Christ like behavior. It will be more meaningful and more sincere. I welcome a smaller more humble place of sacramental celebration.

      I thought you had ordained people +Pat is that not to succeed you when you retire ?

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    3. I have ordained a number of priests and some of them will survive me I hope.

      I have not ordained anyone a bishop yet, but may do

      I cannot see myself retiring.

      My life and vocation are deeply intertwined and I love them both, thanks to God.

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    4. @13:39: You "imagine" the deed are with D&C? It was reported on the BBC website that they are the registered owners when you tried to claim adverse possession of the property - i.e. taking something you never paid for.

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    5. Adverse Possession is NOT taking something you never paid for.

      It IS asking the High Court (in this case) to declare that you have certain tights with regard the property - a claim, representing myself, I established.

      The agreement reached in confidential and I am not at liberty to give you the details.

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    6. @18:08, I'm uninterested in the details of the settlement you reached. However, two simple questions (which I'm not asking you to answer) are pertinent: (1) did you buy the house? (2) did you attempt to claim adverse posession? If the answer to (1) is no, and the answer to (2) is yes, then at the most basic level you did try to take something you didn't pay for.

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    7. The unknown son of a recently deceased woman emerges just after the funeral, able to prove he is her only child.

      He claims her estate successfully.

      Is trying to take something he did not buy.

      In law, there are more ways of "owning" property than simply buying it - gift, inheritance adverse possession, etc.

      You do not seem to know the law.

      I steeped myself in property law to prepare to represent myself against the church's expensive barristers and solicitors.

      The church AGREED to the arrived at agreement.

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    8. If you are saying that you are the unknown son of the deceased owner of this property then I agree you have a very sound legal basis for claim of ownership.

      The gift and inheritance methods of property acquisition are categorically different to adverse possession in that a gift is freely given by the owner, and with inheritance, ownership ceases upon death. In adverse possession, the legal owner's rights to the property are challenged by the adverse possessor.

      My focus is more on the moral aspect than the legal aspect. I accept that adverse possession is legal. I dispute that it is moral in every instance - it may be moral in some, it may not in others.

      But as I stated earlier, at it's most basic level, it is claiming something as yours that you have not bought (or inherited, or been gifted).

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    9. Adverse Possession occurs when the owner of the property fails to take action to secure their a absolute ownership.

      So in part, AP occurs by the owners neglect or failure to act, for whatever reason.

      The conditions for AP are:

      The person claiming AP must:

      1. Be in actual possession of the property.

      2. To be there with the owners knowledge.

      3. Not to be there by physical force.

      4. Never to have paid rent.

      5. To be in these positions for 12 years.

      Apart from legal rights I believe I had the moral right to a roof over my head, after been unjustly treated.

      In any event, it's really none of your business!

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    10. 19.35: You may Pat, like others Priests, have injustices inflicted on you but my God you have sought revenge ever since. Though you had your good beginnings, financially and materially, through the Catholic Church, now you spit in its face in a vulgar, offensive, self righteous way. Your behaviour was not without victims - remember this truth Pat!

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    11. I'm delighted you got the use of that house, Pat. I can only imagine how much it infuriates those who desire to be in control. But, you certainly fought hard for it. If you didn't, there were many who would have been happy to see you on the street. That's reality unfortunately. Not many people have the ability to take the case you did. Fair play.

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    12. Pat,
      You say "The agreement reached is confidential and I am not at liberty to give you the details."
      Why? Who made that stipulation? Is this yet another example of the church trying to operate in secret? Sneaky bastards.

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    13. Sounds like you had a right to the property under AP. The legal owner might argue away but AP is AP and if they did not argue within 12 years than they failed to exercise their ownership.

      Failing to exercise ownership is notable because when we 'own' land technically what is owned is the rights over a parcel of land. Moreover these need to be asserted in order to prevent the legal owner's rights expiring. The only catch to this is if the person with AP accidentially or intentionally acknowledged the legal owner's prior rights.

      This exists due to the crusades when land owners left, never returned and had no child/relative to assert the rights associated with ownership. Anybody with a problem with Pat having AP can console themselves with the fact that the RCC caused the existance of AP.

      So a secret agreement. I am tempted to explain what is probably happening but such speculation is nobody's business. Much the same as I and other comentators are entitled to privacy in relation to our homes.

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  22. What happened the Church you tried to start and there was a committee with Paul as Chair, we never did hear anymore. The Little Brothers are also never mentioned Pat, I heard they have now moved into the Oratory.

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  23. MAGHERAFELT / GATES

    Thanks again pat for letting everyone see exactly what kind of bullying is going on in magherafelt.There are rumours going around that gates has minders protecting him from all the good decent people who spoke out against him.Reminds me of the film called the good,bad and the ugly.I will let you all decide who is who.

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  24. Isn't it amazing how quickly Northern Ireland becomes an irrelevant backwater once the guns are silent and when there is little talk of urgency in a peace process.

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  25. Mommie dearest! For the love of God and your only son, Magna (unless you've one or two I don't know of๐Ÿ˜ก), could you, please, wherever you are and however you are, drop everything, even your episcopal guard, and bring your darling a little food and drink (a bottle of Jameson or Tullamore), and a Monsigneurial change of clothing to your beloved?

    Hiding out fugitively, in these windy wilds of Connemarra, from the long arm of the law is a test too much for human endurance.

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    Replies
    1. This “Mommie dearest”/ “Magna Carta” double act is about as funny as cancer.

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    2. 22:43, you've posted as such before.

      Are you an automaton?๐Ÿ˜†

      Delete
  26. Trainor has the knives out for you today in different ways Pat. His inner cabal are doing his work for him.

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    Replies
    1. Is that the midden who snubbed you +Pat?

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  27. Do you know what.... Just sluggin a glass of Bucky, listening to the wind battering the walls and thinking to myself that if Pat ordained Jamie Bryson, Big Willie 'it was the provos that did it' Frazer, Jamie 'mmm Wee Birdie' McConnell and his best mate from North Korea that that wiuld sort the Catholic Church out and tighten up the problematic Bishops!
    Cause Mmmm McConnell is thee Boyo! One hell of a straight lad!!!!!

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    Replies
    1. 22:47 Wise up, McConnell thrives on hearing his voice and gets satisfaction from reading his name!

      Ignore him, just his ludicrous page on FB with merely 1 or 2 likes to every post, says it all about him and his campaign to free the CC and mmm nearly forgot to free Ireland!

      Knowing Martin McGuinness he would be turning in his grave to see his pictures on his page!

      Ignore him!

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  28. If you've no respect for your mother 08.49 who else in this world could you respect, not sure if this man has respect for himself!

    Making mockery and scorn of mental illness, shocking.

    Many suffer from it including myself, how dare you mock us all!

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  29. Gone is he in the head. To be intimidated by him would be like getting bullied by a pussy cat!

    Remember O'Connell your only a wee man and that little birdie told me with 'no likes.'

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  30. The Bible never mentions St. Peter going to Rome, because the entire New Testament takes place in Rome. Judea was a state of Rome governed by a Roman Governor, Pilate. Therefore Jesus was born, crucified, and resurrected all in the Empire of Rome.

    In the book of John, Jesus commands St. Peter to tend to his flock, which means once Jesus is gone St. Peter is charged with serving as the Sheppard, our first Pope. The Holy Roman Catholic Church was named the sole religion of the Roman Empire, and when Rome collapsed the only thing that survived was their official church, the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

    Therefore since Jesus was born in Rome, crucified and resurrected in Rome, Jesus told St. Peter to tend to his flock in Rome, and St. Peter died in Rome, the official Church of Rome was the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and that Church was the only thing that survived the collapse of Rome, then the foundation of Christianity rests with the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

    Think of it this way, I don’t have to go to and die in New York City to go to and die in New York.

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